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Rockdoc

Not mentioned on local memorials

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My Grandfather's cousin, Thomas Butlin, served in the 2/7th Royal Warwickshires and was killed in action in March 1918, near St Quentin, in the opening days of the German advance. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Pozieres Memorial.

I don't live far away from Sutton Coldfield and drove over to the Minworth area recently to see whether I could find his name on the local memorials in Walmley or Curdworth but he's on neither. I later found out that Minworth had achieved parochial status in 1909 and assumed that there would be a memorial there, too, but the local library tells me that it has never had one. Does any Warwickshire member know where, if anywhere, Minworth casualties are listed?

On the same theme, are there many places in the UK that do not remember their War dead?

Keith

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I can certainly think of some where they have just a plaque inside the church and another that has only a wooden plaque inside the village hall.

I see on UKNIWM that there is a Roll of Honour in St George's Church, Minworth see here and also an individual memorial for Pte Hewitt in the same place.

\Spoons

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Thank you very much. I hadn't managed to Google that particular site for some reason. What's interesting is that the Sutton Coldfield local-studies section isn't aware that there's a RoH at Minworth. I'll see if I can find some contact details.

It's funny how varied memorials are. I hadn't realised. Walmley's memorial is what you'd think of as one: a public marker with names on metal plaques. Curdworth's is on large, wooden, painted panels that hang in the church. I wonder how they chose? How much money the parish could scrape together, perhaps?

Keith

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On the same theme, are there many places in the UK that do not remember their War dead?

[/quote

Many towns and cities commemorate by way of a cenotaph rather than a memorial with names.

As always, even with small communities, it will have depended on local interest and the community's ability to raise the funds.

John

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Birmingham Weekly Post May 25 1918. Listed in the 'Missing Soldiers' Bureau. Of HQ Coy. Any information to his wife at Summer Lane, Minworth.

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Interesting! He was killed almost two months earlier so she had clearly heard nothing official by that stage. Was that normal?

Keith

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Yes - confirmation of deaths of those missing in action could take up to a year

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I once read a book about the small towns and villages where all the men survived and they found it difficult to be unable to join in with the grief experienced just up or down the road. Can't remember title or author but the locations were put in a League with the most returnees at the top. At the time I thought it original and thought provoking. The quality of work on the Farsley memorial is awesome and ,as likely, unrepeatable.

Phil

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he was killed at the start of the German Spring Offensive and units and men got separated and it took a while to sort out who was missing and who was killed etc.

I will be passing Pozieres Memorial next weekend, do you need a photo of his name?

Regards

Terry

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Alan,

I suppose a year is understandable from an administrative point of view but I don't want to think what it must have been like for his wife, with two young girls to keep going for. How did she survive? Did his pay stop when he went missing?

Phil,

I don't suppose the idea that everyone came back to anywhere in the UK or most of the Empire crosses anyone's mind very often. It's said that survivors of disasters suffer feelings of guilt so it isn't hard to imagine that, even if the village wanted to join in, they wouldn't be at all comfortable at a Remembrance Day Parade.

Terry,

Yes, please!

Keith

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Alan,

I suppose a year is understandable from an administrative point of view but I don't want to think what it must have been like for his wife, with two young girls to keep going for. How did she survive? Did his pay stop when he went missing?

Phil,

I don't suppose the idea that everyone came back to anywhere in the UK or most of the Empire crosses anyone's mind very often. It's said that survivors of disasters suffer feelings of guilt so it isn't hard to imagine that, even if the village wanted to join in, they wouldn't be at all comfortable at a Remembrance Day Parade.

Terry,

Yes, please!

Keith

Yes - horrendous but until War Office confirmation there was hope and appeals were made in newspapers for information. The Birmingham Weekly Post called it the Missing Soldiers' Bureau. On the other hand there were examples of a missing man turning up as a POW after some significant delay.

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Just about the only consolation she probably had was the fact that there were a lot of her husband's family living within a few miles of her and I know, from other lines of my genealogical research that they would close ranks and do everything possible to help when things got bad. I haven't found anything about the family after his death yet but all this makes me even more determined to keep looking.

Keith

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I hadn't managed to Google that particular site for some reason. What's interesting is that the Sutton Coldfield local-studies section isn't aware that there's a RoH at Minworth. I'll see if I can find some contact details.

It's funny how varied memorials are. I hadn't realised. Walmley's memorial is what you'd think of as one: a public marker with names on metal plaques. Curdworth's is on large, wooden, painted panels that hang in the church. I wonder how they chose? How much money the parish could scrape together, perhaps?

Keith

UKNIWM keeps the memorials on a database and these are retrieved by a query script. Search engines like google are unlikely to find such entries unless someone happens to have linked to them. It doesn't surprise me that the local-studies section was not aware of the Roll of Honour - some people have some very limited conception of what a memorial is, they probably asked the church and they said they had none. I have had a church warden tell me there were no war memorials in the church while he was standing beside the roll of honour!

Just a few examples of war memorials I have seen (not all with names on admittedly); pillar or obelisk, cairn, statue, stone or wooden plaque, handwritten roll of honour, stained glass window, font, altar, altar rail and other church furniture, lych gate, tower, laid up colours, village hall, tree, row of trees, chapel, hospital, piece of artwork, cenotaph, clock tower, lamp, book and donation for a particular purpose e.g. hospital bed, bursary or district nurse. You have to think laterally and search everywhere if you are looking for them.

\Spoons

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QUOTE (Rockdoc @ Feb 11 2009, 08:46 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I hadn't managed to Google that particular site for some reason. What's interesting is that the Sutton Coldfield local-studies section isn't aware that there's a RoH at Minworth. I'll see if I can find some contact details.

It's funny how varied memorials are. I hadn't realised. Walmley's memorial is what you'd think of as one: a public marker with names on metal plaques. Curdworth's is on large, wooden, painted panels that hang in the church. I wonder how they chose? How much money the parish could scrape together, perhaps?

Keith

UKNIWM keeps the memorials on a database and these are retrieved by a query script. Search engines like google are unlikely to find such entries unless someone happens to have linked to them. It doesn't surprise me that the local-studies section was not aware of the Roll of Honour - some people have some very limited conception of what a memorial is, they probably asked the church and they said they had none. I have had a church warden tell me there were no war memorials in the church while he was standing beside the roll of honour!

Just a few examples of war memorials I have seen (not all with names on admittedly); pillar or obelisk, cairn, statue, stone or wooden plaque, handwritten roll of honour, stained glass window, font, altar, altar rail and other church furniture, lych gate, tower, laid up colours, village hall, tree, row of trees, chapel, hospital, piece of artwork, cenotaph, clock tower, lamp, book and donation for a particular purpose e.g. hospital bed, bursary or district nurse. You have to think laterally and search everywhere if you are looking for them.

\Spoons

Rockdoc... I live in summer lane, and have a photo of the local church memorial IN MINWORTH . PM me if interested WITH EMAIL ADDRESS

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Hi Keith, in 2014 I researched all the WW1 roll of honour men in Curdworth church and created a memorial book. It did not include your relation Butlin. However in the beehive village pub I found hanging above the fireplace a framed roll of honour for Curdworth and minworth. Butlin is listed under minworth. The roll of honour was presented by the soldiers work societies. A photocopy was made, framed and it now hangs in the church. So if you care to return again you will see it alongside the other rolls of honour. Enjoy.

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Well done Laura!

I assume you have these, and more?

ABBOTT, ALFRED. Rank: Corporal. Service No: 15621. Date of Death: 23/12/1916.
Regiment/Service: Royal Warwickshire Regiment 15th Bn.
Grave Reference: VI. A. 36. Cemetery: BETHUNE TOWN CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Husband of Olive Hitchman (formerly Abbott), of The Green, Minworth, Birmingham.
BIGNELL, CHARLES VALENTIN. Rank: Private. Service No: 25837. Date of Death: 22/10/1918. Age: 37.
Regiment/Service: The Queen's (Royal West Surrey Regiment) 10th Bn.
Grave Reference: V. C. 11. Cemetery: HARLEBEKE NEW BRITISH CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Father of Charles Frederick Bignell, of 3, May Cottages, Minworth, Birmingham.
BUTLIN, THOMAS. Rank: Private. Service No: 268352. Date of Death: 22/03/1918. Age: 31.
Regiment/Service: Royal Warwickshire Regiment 2nd 7th Bn.
Panel Reference: Panel 18 and 19. Memorial: POZIERES MEMORIAL.
Additional Information:Son of John Butlin, of Minworth, Birmingham; husband of Alice Maud Butlin, of Summer Lane, Minworth, Birmingham.
CALDICOTT, WALTER JOHN. Rank: Private. Service No: 37812. Date of Death: 27/05/1918. Age: 36.
Regiment/Service: Leicestershire Regiment 8th Bn. Panel Reference: Memorial: SOISSONS MEMORIAL.
Additional Information:Son of Stephen and Sarah Caldicott, of Ivy Cottage, Bull Ring, Minworth, Birmingham;
husband of Louisa Mary Caldicott, of 10, Chester Avenue, Forster St., Birmingham.
His brother Stephen Caldicott also fell. (but not residing in Minworth???)
CARTON, WILLIAM. Rank: Private. Service No: 40963. Date of Death: 12/04/1918. Age: 18.
Regiment/Service: Royal Warwickshire Regiment 2nd/7th Bn.
Panel Reference: Panel 2 and 3. Memorial: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL.
Additional Information:Son of Peter and Margaret Carton, of Old Railway Inn, Kingsbury Rd., Minworth, Warwickshire.
EAVES, ALBERT. Rank: Private. Service No: 7555. Date of Death: 01/11/1914. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service:11th (Prince Albert's Own) Hussars
Panel Reference: Panel 5. Memorial: YPRES (MENIN GATE) MEMORIAL.
Additional Information:Son of Mary Elizabeth Keates (formerly Eaves), of Kingsbury Rd., Minworth, Birmingham, and the late William Eaves.
One of seven brothers who served.
ELMORE, T. Rank: Private. Service No: 11915. Date of Death: 16/02/1916. Age: 25.
Regiment/Service: Dorsetshire Regiment 6th Bn.
Grave Reference: Enclosure No.4 VII. B. 34. Cemetery: BEDFORD HOUSE CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Son of Leonard and Charlotte Elmore, of Bull Ring, Minworth, Birmingham.
HEWITT, EDWARD J..Rank: Private. Service No: 41749. Date of Death: 11/04/1918. Age: 23.
Regiment/Service: Royal Irish Fusiliers 1st Bn.
Panel Reference: Panel 140 to 141. Memorial: TYNE COT MEMORIAL.
Additional Information:Son of Joseph and Elizabeth Steele Hewitt, of The Post Office, Minworth, Birmingham.
KELLEY, VICTOR JAMES. Rank: Private. Service No: 7531. Date of Death: 08/07/1917. Age: 19.
Regiment/Service: The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 10th Bn.
Grave Reference: North of West end of church. Cemetery: WALMLEY (ST. JOHN) CHURCHYARD.
Additional Information: Son of Mrs. H. E. Hart (formerly Kelley), of Ash Farm, Minworth, Birmingham, and the late Joseph Kelley.
KETLAND, G H. Rank: Gunner. Service No: 145528. Date of Death: 24/09/1917. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Royal Garrison Artillery 13th Siege Bty.
Grave Reference: VII. A. 2. Cemetery: THE HUTS CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Son of Charles and Thirza Ketland, of Lea Marston, Minworth, Birmingham.
ROFFEY, R. Rank: Corporal. Service No: 24052. Date of Death: 07/10/1918. Age: 37.
Regiment/Service: The King's (Liverpool Regiment) 13th Bn.
Grave Reference: VIII. J. 2A. Cemetery: MONT HUON MILITARY CEMETERY, LE TREPORT.
Additional Information: Son of William and Sarah Roffey; husband of Alice Roffey, of Corporation Cottages, Kingsbury Rd., Minworth, Birmingham.
Native of Aston, Birmingham.
SMITH, ALEXANDER FORBES. Rank: Private. Service No: 28520. Date of Death: 07/09/1918. Age: 19.
Regiment/Service: Hampshire Regiment 15th Bn.
Grave Reference: II. H. 2. Cemetery: ESQUELBECQ MILITARY CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Son of Gordon and Eliza Smith, of Walmley Ash, Minworth, Birmingham.
Native of Port Erroll, Aberdeen.
WEBB, J W. Rank: Lance Corporal. Service No: 17916. Date of Death: 09/05/1917. Age: 26.
Regiment/Service: Oxford and Bucks Light Infantry 7th Bn.
Grave Reference: VI. G. 29. Cemetery: DOIRAN MILITARY CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Son of Thomas and Harriet Webb, of Wiggin's Hill, Minworth, Birmingham.
Native of Sutton Coldfield.
=====================================================
CRANE, MERVYN HENRY. Rank: Able Seaman. Service No: P/SSX16141. Date of Death: 16/03/1940. Age: 22.
Regiment/Service: Royal Navy H.M.S. Berwick
Grave Reference: Sec. A. Grave 171. Cemetery: DUNFERMLINE (DOUGLAS BANK) CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Son of Ada F. M. Crane, of Minworth, Warwickshire.
DAVY, ALAN CHURCHILL. Rank: Sergeant. Service No: 1816775. Date of Death: 04/03/1945. Age: 20.
Regiment/Service: Royal Air Force Volunteer Reserve
Panel Reference: Panel 274. Memorial: RUNNYMEDE MEMORIAL.
Additional Information:Son of Henry and Daisy Frances Davy, of Minworth, Warwickshire.
HALL, ERIC JAMES. Rank: Fusilier. Service No: 14700207. Date of Death: 16/09/1944. Age: 29.
Regiment/Service: Royal Welch Fusiliers 4th Bn.
Grave Reference: II. C. 13. Cemetery: SCHOONSELHOF CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Son of Henry and Mary Elizabeth Hall, of Minworth, Warwickshire.
WILLOUGHBY, WILLIAM ALFRED. Rank: Corporal. Service No: 4923564. Date of Death: 30/07/1944. Age: 31.
Regiment/Service: Dorsetshire Regiment 1st Bn.
Grave Reference: II. H. 13. Cemetery: TILLY-SUR-SEULLES WAR CEMETERY.
Additional Information:Son of Alfred and Elizabeth Willoughby, of Minworth, Warwickshire; husband of Edith Lucy Willoughby, of Minworth.
Several seemed anxious not to be known as from Minworth but "Native of elsewhere!!)

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My Grandfather's cousin, Thomas Butlin, served in the 2/7th Royal Warwickshires and was killed in action in March 1918, near St Quentin, in the opening days of the German advance. He has no known grave and is commemorated on the Pozieres Memorial.

I don't live far away from Sutton Coldfield and drove over to the Minworth area recently to see whether I could find his name on the local memorials in Walmley or Curdworth but he's on neither. I later found out that Minworth had achieved parochial status in 1909 and assumed that there would be a memorial there, too, but the local library tells me that it has never had one. Does any Warwickshire member know where, if anywhere, Minworth casualties are listed?

On the same theme, are there many places in the UK that do not remember their War dead?

Keith

If you send me your email address, I have him on the Minworth and curdworth/minworth ROH. ( TWO seperate). will send pics. (not on the school memorial).

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Well done Laura!

I assume you have these, and more?

CARTON, WILLIAM. Rank: Private. Service No: 40963. Date of Death: 12/04/1918. Age: 18.
Regiment/Service: Royal Warwickshire Regiment 2nd/7th Bn.
Panel Reference: Panel 2 and 3. Memorial: PLOEGSTEERT MEMORIAL.
Additional Information:Son of Peter and Margaret Carton, of Old Railway Inn, Kingsbury Rd., Minworth, Warwickshire.

For the record, William Carton's elder brother, Peter, was a conscientious objector; imprisoned before working on the Home Office Scheme. The Cartons were not the only family where attitudes towards the war were divided.

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ID: 19   Posted (edited)

On 7/19/2015 at 00:39, laurabelle said:

Hi Keith, in 2014 I researched all the WW1 roll of honour men in Curdworth church and created a memorial book. It did not include your relation Butlin. However in the beehive village pub I found hanging above the fireplace a framed roll of honour for Curdworth and minworth. Butlin is listed under minworth. The roll of honour was presented by the soldiers work societies. A photocopy was made, framed and it now hangs in the church. So if you care to return again you will see it alongside the other rolls of honour. Enjoy.

Hi Laura, I am the webmaster for Nuneaton and North Warks family history society and for a number of years we have been transcribing memorials and then building individual memorial pages for each man mentioned on a war memorial in our area. We have yet to process Curdworth & Wishaw, Minworth, Shilton, Exhall, Easinghall.
Examples of our pages look like this..
War Memorial:  http://www.nnwfhs.org.uk/catch-all/first-world-war-centenary-2/warmemorialtranscriptionsaimages/bedworth
Individual: http://www.nnwfhs.org.uk/catch-all/first-world-war-centenary-2/men-of-ww1-members-detailed-pages/1354-pvt-w-baldwin-2
I would be very grateful for your assistance with transcribing Curdworth and Minworth and also obtaining some photographs.
The final aim is to add as much information to each page as possible to create a lasting memorial for each man.
The British Library will be or is indexing and archiving our website for prosperity..
Next stages of the project are pages showing which regiments men served in and a page for each CWGC site which will list each man from the area who is buried or commemorated there.
Regards

Ian

Edited by Ian @ NNWFHS

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