Remembered Today:

david west

24th Field Ambulance

100 posts in this topic

On 01/04/2017 at 00:29, aldlb57 said:

Dear Sotonmate,

I found this Sherwood Forester in dispatches. I wonder if he could be our man.

What do you think?

With kindest regards,

Andre

G.Lowe Sherwood Foresters.jpg

Andre

 

This soldier died on 15 June 1918 while serving with 9 Battalion Y&L in 33 Infantry Brigade of 11 Division.

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Dear Sotonmate,

Thanks for this information. 

Apart from the fact that options are narrowing down (which is always good news), it still remains that there are so many sad stories of men not coming home. 

This is one of them.

With kindest regards,

Andre

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ID: 78   Posted (edited)

Andre

 

Yesterday at Kew. 2/Lieutenant/Lieutenant Dudley Frederick WILKINS.

British Army Lists 1918/1919 have no apparent entry for DFW in either Index or West Yorkshire Regiment pages.

Indian Army Lists sampled 1919/1920/1923/1930/1935 don't show him either.I checked the List of Departures in each one in case there was a premature discharge, but none seen.

Re-checked the WO338 Index. WO338/221/1 has no entry.

Re-checked WO339 and WO374 Officer files, no result. In this case the papers may have followed him to whatever he did next, and they MIGHT be with the Indian records in the British Library, London. More likely that he has records here but not in the public domain due to my later info about him serving again, but could be in parts in both places !

Some facts: Born Camberwell London 1895.In 1911 he was living with parents Frederick and Hannah at 7 Rosslyn, Ellers Road, LEEDS. Yorkshire, and 2 brothers and a sister.

He worked in a clothing factory where Dad was the Manager and he a Tailoring Trimmer. I suspect that he met his future wife there,married 1929 in Leeds, Cora Elaine ARNOLD was a Dressmaker Apprentice, so feasibly in the same factory ! They had 3 children : Patricia, June 1932,Terence A,10 May 1936 and Linda (?) R, June 1943.and still in Leeds.

I came across him again in military mode in 1939. Still living in Leeds he had been mobilised in the Territorial Army and served as a Battery Quartermaster Sergeant (if you have to use this title again the abbreviation is BQMS !), number 864018 of 66 Anti-Aircraft Regiment of the Royal Artillery. Discharged to Class Z Reserve on 17 Aug 1945 as over-age (50). This info suggest that he was in the TA between the wars .

Need to explore links from the children in the hope that you can find a descendant. Found one possible, Patricia seems to have married a TILLOTSON in Dec 1962 but have got no further due to "tempus fugit" !

Edited by sotonmate

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ID: 79   Posted (edited)

Dear Sotonmate,

 

I am impressed by the presious information you managed to gather!

 

Looking at the medal card and roll, could one presume that Dudley Frederick Wilkins was a TA soldier with the 1/8th (Leeds Rifles) Battalion West Yokshire Regt, a lance corporal, when the Great War started? It is not clear to me when he was transferred to the 2 Bn West Yorkshire Regt.

 

I do not understand how he could become a battery quartermaster sergeant in the TA after the war, an NCO, after having been a battle commissioned 1st lieutenant. Could that be logical? Could he have been an NCO with temporary officer rank? I know that of the regular army officers, many had temporary ranks and went back to their basic rank after the war. I've never heard of NCO's having a temporary officer's rank. I thought that both categories, NCO's and commissioned officers, were well separated from each other and that one belonged to one or the other.

 

From the London Gazette (13/02/1918) one learns that he was commissioned in the TA. Could that be an indication that Dudley Frederick Wilkins was not a regular army soldier? Is it logical that a TA officer could be transferred to the Indian army? Does that indicate a change from TA to regular army?

 

Also, his transfer dat to England and Indian Army on November 18, 1918 is already "post war" as the armistice was signed one week earlier. Are the following options possible:

1. He went back to england and perhaps his posting to India was cancelled because of a change in policy because of the armistice. That he was transferred to 

2. He went back to England, was posted to India, thus becoming a regular army officer. 

3. The information concerning the posting to the Indian Army was written in the war diary of 2 Bn West Yorkshire Regt by error.  

 

Going back to the London Gazette of 13/02/1918, what to think of the inscription on the (1920!) medal roll: "R. 29.01/18" which is only a fortnight prior to the date of the London Gazette? Are you able to decipher the written inscription on the medal roll that seem to contain an abbreviation for o the word "officers"? 

 

Could the reference code "NW/4/6566" be of help as it is written on medal card, medal roll and blank medal roll?

 

Thanking you again for your precious help.
With kindest regards,
Andre

Edited by aldlb57

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ID: 80   Posted (edited)

Andre

 

I have been looking at some numbering sequences and enlistment dates as some Regiments do not always appear to match perfectly for various reasons, one of which is that a number may be re-used after it becomes vacant and thus puts the date sequence into doubt in the absence of all those lost papers. A sample: 1263 enlisted on 7 Feb 1915.1235 on 30 Jan 1915. 1736 on 5 Aug 1914 and 1678 on 18 Jun 1914.1622 on 16 Apr 1912 and 1229 on 24 Aug 1911. Several 2200s  shown as Sep 1914. You can see that this is an erratic sequence and you may need some luck from other sources here ! There is a fair chance that DFW enlisted late 1914/early 1915 at the latest, and even a chance that he was a TF soldier prior to mobilisation. At that time he didn't have to sign up as there was no conscription, he would have likely volunteered and may have been a 2 weeks a year soldier in the TF. He certainly landed in France with 1/8 Battalion which had been at Barracks in Leeds on August 4 1914. His 1363 number was changed to a new series around 1917 when the TF was re-numbered, his 1/8 Battalion received a batch of numbers within which his 305093 was located, and he used this number for 146 TMB also. It wasn't unitl he commissioned as an Officer, initially allocated to 1/7 Battalion on 29 Jan 1918 according to his 1914-1915 Star Medal Roll (yes, there is another roll !), that he later joined 2 Battalion.

It has occurred to me that there MIGHT be a second (or more) London Gazette entry for his cessation of Officer rank, that would be a normal process at service end. Quite what happened after he is shown as returning to join the Indian Army, possibly at the time some agreement that he might assume a Regular role on transfer, we are unsure. I am returning to the thought that he has papers in Army Records which are not yet in the public domain, but, you can ask for a search, and supply if any are found,for the fee of £30 ! This is possible even if you are not a relative. If you are tempted by this let me know and I will provide a link.I don't think there is any question that he wasn't a full TA (not a Regular) Officer for that 1918 period at least. It seems to me that he may have resigned his Commission and at some time later returned to TF duties as a volunteer in addition to his normal employment.

In the matter of his service with TA in WW2 it is likely quite possible to choose a different unit to what he might have been used to, it may have just been that he gave his experience/services to assisting in the running a Home unit at this time in order to allow the release of younger soldiers to war fronts, though I can't be sure that he didn't go overseas himself again without checking what 66 AA Regiment RA was involved in !

Your question concerning the options you list, whilst the Armistice had been signed earlier it seems that the Army were not actually taking this as being the absolute end of possible conflict so remained to some degree in readiness into 1919.I would say that you option 1 was more likely. Option2 -there is no sign evident to me that he actually joined the Indian Army as he doesn't appear on their periodic Lists as described earlier. Option 3 - no reason to be an error as there must have been some info to provoke this comment to be written in an official journal.

Your next paragraph refers to the comment "R.29.01/18" which may have reference to that shown on the 1914-15 Star Roll which I have posted about here, his date to 1/7 Battalion as a newly appointed 2/Lieutenant. The Medal Card inscription "o" is the prefix for the York Army Centre which indicates where the medal processes were carried out for this Regiment (and various others).

The reference "NW/4/6566" has already been described as some form of accountancy/control of medal processes, it seems that this link is to Officers applications, as I don't see them being used for Other Ranks, as I said, I felt that they were part of the acknowledgement/logging/engraving/issue processes for the medals.If you take a look at the Medal Roll for some of the Officers which you posted you will see that each one has an NW reference but with a sequential number.

 

I have also been trying to link DFW to a living descendant ! The best I can do for now is to say that he only had 2 children, the third one I posted earlier now turns out to be irrelevant. Terence A,born May 1936 in Leeds,died in 2000 in East Staffordshire. The second child, Patricia,born Jun 1932, married Peter Tillotson, West Riding, Yorkshire, autumn of 1962. Son Andrew M did not survive birth in early 1965 but daughter Heather, born early 1967 in Keighley, Yorkshire, married Stewart J Shaw Aug 1989, again in Keighley.A daughter, Sarah Shaw, was born in Keighley in Feb 1997.

 

 

 

Edited by sotonmate

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Dear Sotonmate,

 

Very impressive! I continued my research using the information you gathered. Please find the updated research file on Dudley Frederick Wilkins.

I found confirmation of Patricia Wilkins' marriage to Peter Tillotson and the fact that the latter died in 1975 at the age of 52.

Finally, I found the birth registry of Heather Tillotson in Worth Vally in 1967 and the one of a Stuart J. Shaw, born in the same district in 1964. Could I presume that this is the right person (another Stuart J. Shaw was born in 1964, this time in Rother Valley, Yorkshire West Riding) ?

I found mention of a marriage between Heather Tillotson and Stuart J. Shaw in August 1989. Also concerning the birth of Sarah Shaw in Keighley in February1997. Unfortunately, the latter two registers could not be downloaded. 

Subsequently, I've been searching a telephone register using www.thephonebook.bt.com/ and I phoned the number of S. Shaw in Keighly who proved not to be related. Searching Patricia Wilkins (Tillotson), Heather Tillotson, Stuart J. Shaw and Sarah Shaw on Facebook and Google did not yield any result.

Before starting on a wild goose chase, calling the telephone numbers I found, do you have any idea how I could refine my research, trying to get in touch with any of these people? Do you know whether one can search the more recent census results (e.g. 2011), or are these inaccessible?

 

 

Thanking you again for your invaluable help!

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

WILKINS Dudley Frederick research file 040514.pdf

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Andre

 

Sorry that I am not around here too much recently. Too much else to be keeping up with at the busy gardening/vegetable growing period (another hobby).

I am seeing what my brother can suggest about researching current records, but what I do know is that the last Census available for public access was the 1911 ! These records are embargo-ed for 100 years, except that the 1911 was a little bit early. As far as I know the next,1921,Census is available in 2021 ! There is an interesting record from 1939 when a List was produced to inform the process of issuing wartime Identity Cards. That is where I got the information about DFWs WW2 service.

I would say that the local Shaw who married Heather is the right person but you will need to see a Marriage Cert to be sure !

 

I have been having a short exercise in tracing the descendants of the Medical Officers of 24 FA. The Officer Commanding at the time of the award of the Croix-de-Guerre, Lieutenant Colonel R Burgess was also a Lieutenant in this FA when it was first landed in France. Another Officer , Major Trevor Abbott LAWDER, around the unit in 1918 in your area, was also a Lieutenant in the early days. His descendants are quite likely to be traceable as his daughter Vivienne N Lawder married a Brian J S COLLINS in 1939 and their daughter Rosamond D E Collins married a Colin C McKay in 1969 and they had several children between 1969 and 1978. If you were thinking of following this side of the unit then this man's family hold a better than normal chance of success.

 

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Dear Sotonmate and other friends,

 

The latest news is that David Stokes was identified thanks to Absent Voters lists from 1918 and 1919. Lucky as these lists are only available for a limited number of constituancies. I am now in touch with people in the area that knew David Stokes when he lived there (Dadford, Buckinghamshire). Since he and his wife did not have children, research is continued in order to find descendants of brothers and sisters. I received one photograph of David Stokes when he was 62 years old. Still no photograph of him in uniform.

 

Concerning lieutenant Dudley Frederick Wilkins, the search for daughter Patricia Wilkins, granddaughter Heather Shaw née Tillotson and great great granddaughter Sarah Shaw is still going on, combing through facebook, linkedin and telephone directories. Results: nil. I wonder if anyone could give me a clue. 

 

Concerning privates George H. Lowe and Norman J. Turner, only military identification but no result concerning genealogical research. 

 

Thanking you again for your help!

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

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ID: 84   Posted (edited)

Andre

 

I may have a link to Norman J (James) TURNER (5 OBLI and 2 Royal Berks).1901 Census return for the 1911 gives a person of this name born in Chinnor Oxfordshire on 26 Nov 1897,parents George and Alice. No hit for the 1911 though ! Later, in 1919 a man of this name married a Lily Nowell, in Wycombe,Buckinghamshire. There is a shielded Tree on Ancestry UK with a link to it's family keeper, and I have asked a question.

 

Edit: Norman is in fact in the 1911 family return, disguised under a flowery loop to the N which looks like a D and which fooled the transcriber of the digitisation to believe he is Dorman ! He is 13 and at school and living in Chinnor still.

Edited by sotonmate

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Dear Sotonmate,

 

Thank you again for your help!

I know that obtaining such information costs a lot of research time.

I hope you would send me your name and address as the Head master of the school would like to send you a personal thank you letter.

With kindest regards,

Andre

aldelabruyere@free.fr

 

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Dear Sotonmate,

There's also a Norman James Turner born in Q1 1898 in "Thame, Oxfordshire (volume 3a, page 853).

How can we know who of the 2 is our soldier?

I have a tendency of believing that if a soldier was recruited first into the OBLI, that he must be from either Oxfordshire or Buckinghamshire.

Wonder whether Absent voters lists for 1918 or 1919 are available as these mention regiment and regimental number.

With kindest regards,

Andre

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Dear Sotonmate,

It looks af is this is one and the same person.

Both his birth and baptism was registered in Q1 1898 and Thame and Chinnor parish are only 4 miles apart.

What troubles me is that his baptism register mentions: "Born Nov 26, 1897".

Could it be that Norman James Turner was born on that date but that still unexplained circumstances caused a 6 week delay of both birth registration and baptism?

Or could there be some error?

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

 

 

 

 

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Dear Sotonmate,

I managed to find Norman James Turner (born 26/11/1897) in the 1939 register.

Looking at it closely, their daughter Marjorie A. Turner, born 6/2/1920, married a McPhee.

I reckon that the inscription in blue ink is a reference to the marriage.

Could it have taken place in 1948? 

Keep on digging.

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

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Dear Sotonmate,

For the moment, I only found the death registry of their daughter:

Name: Marjorie Alice McPhee
Birth Date: 6 Feb 1920
Date of Registration: Apr 2003
Age at Death: 83
Registration district: Bournemouth
Inferred County: Hampshire
Register Number: A24D
District and Subdistrict: 427/1A
Entry Number:

103

 

I am advancing, although I did not find her birth registration.

If it is possible to find grandchildren of our soldier, they might confirm that he's the right man.

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

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Got it!

Marjorie Alice Turner birth registration

 

 

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Marriage between Marjorie Alice Turner and Alexander McPhee 1948

Now the grandchildren....

 

 

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Andre

 

Are you having time for a normal life !?

I was to have sent this last night but for some reason my green light on my modem changed to red and I took it as a signal to have a sleep .

I mention this because of the odd coincidence I now see from your searchings of the Turner links, not that it means a connection, merely that my searches for George Herbert  COLE also revealed a St John's Road residence, except that it was in Oxford !

I will send it later as it's time for a late petit dejeneur !

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Dear Sotonmate,

You asked quite a legitimate question. I'm living three lives at the same time: development director of a management search company, part time Dutch teacher at a grammar school and historical researcher. And now the local university might want to hire me as a Dutch (language, culture and history) professor. Sometimes nights are short.

Concerning Turner, we still are not entirely certain that this is our man.

Some time ago I found a Norman John Turner in Berkshire (see the 1911 census).

However, could one presume that every soldier that initially was drafted into the OBLI was from Oxfordshire or Buckinghamshire?

Why was this geographical attachment abandoned since we have three soldiers that left the OBLI after training in order to join the Royal Berkshire Regiment?

What is the logic behind it all?

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

PS Who is George Herbert Cole? I'm still searching for a George Herbert Lowe.

The latter also started at OBLI before being transferred to the Royal Berkshire Regiment. 

I wonder whether many soldiers of the 2Bn Royal Berkshire Regiment followed the same pattern.

It must also mean that these chaps came from grossly the same area.

Between David Stokes' dadford, Buckinghamshire and Norman james Turner's Thame, Oxfordshire, there are only 28 miles!

 

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Could I draw attention please to the recent rule change. There is a link at the top of the page. Please respect that policy in future posts here.

 

Keith Roberts

GWF team

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To Keith Roberts,

I just read the rules that are quite logical and straightforward.

Was your message a simple reminder or must I understand that one of the rules was not respected in our postings?

If yes, I'd be most grateful if you could specify.

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

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Quote

However, could one presume that every soldier that initially was drafted into the OBLI was from Oxfordshire or Buckinghamshire?

Once conscription came in a man would be sent wherever the army wanted him - geographical connections didn't particularly matter.


Craig

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Andre

 

Sorry, it's LOWE I meant to write ! Here some info gathered last night which seems to fit, but you might need an official certificate here and there to confirm some personal links:

George H (Herbert) LOWE, possibly 23019 OBLI and 45317 Royal Berkshire Regt. Born 1896 Oxford. Parents Joseph Charles (younger- his Dad had the same name) and Mother Agnes. In the 1901 they lived in St John's Road, Oxford, just the three of them. Again in 1911. Next door lived Joseph Charles the elder and his wife Mary Ann.

GHL (aged 28) married Mary Ethel EARL (26) in April 1924 in Oxford. They had a daughter Sylvia J EARL born 1st quarter of 1925 in Headington,Oxford.

Sylvia may have married a Wilton G WILCOX in 2nd quarter of 1954 in Birmingham, here you would need a marriage certificate which shows parents, as there are other Sylvia J LOWEs around ! She had 2 daughters, Elaine WILCOX born Dec 1954 at Meriden Yorkshire, and Susan M WILCOX, born Dec 1958 in Birmingham. The record for these 2 shows mother as nee LOWE.

 

You do have a lot to contend with ! Good luck with everything. Odd that this morning I almost wrote ontbijt before I chose petit d !

I will do a bit more digging later but some of these items are now probably only confirmable with a certificate of some sort.

 

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ID: 98   Posted (edited)

Dear Sotonmate,

From the start there seems to have been a confusion about George's second name which apparently is Hubert and not Herbert. 

The 1939 register of George Hubert Lowe shows that his daughter Sylvia Joan Lowe married John William Grosvenor Hodgkinson in 1948.

John died in Oxford in november 2001 at the age of 81.

Sylvia died in Oxford on 16 april 2008 at the age of 83.

An important fact is that apparently they never left Oxford.

I only found one child born in Oxford shortly after the marriage date with a mother who's maiden name is Lowe:

Terence J.G. Hodgkinson, born in Oxford in Q2 1950.

I've been searching but have not yet located a Terry J.G. Hodgkinson. 

It seems that finding people becomes more difficult when they're still alive!

I did not find a will for Sylvia.

We're getting really close but how to proceed from here on?

With kindest regards,

Andre

 

 

Lowe George Hubert 1939 register.jpg

Lowe Sylvia J marriage Hodgkinson John W.G. Q1 1948.jpg

Hodgkinson Terence J.G. Birth Q2 1950 Oxford.jpg

Edited by aldlb57

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Dear Sotonmate and other friends,

 

Upon reexamination, my instinct tells me there may be two soldiers named Lowe and not only one.

Please look at the inscriptions: there's one "G.Lowe", written in an artistic way and a "Lowe" written more simply.
Why would one soldier write his name two times and in a different way (with and without an initial, written artistically and normally)? Doesn't make sense.

Will do more research concerning the units that liberated the town as I'm sure we might find another "logical"  Lowe there.

With kindest regards,
Andre

Lowe original 2.jpg

Lowe original.jpg

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Andre

 

Not sure that I agree with you ! Looking at the two images of LOWE, they are quite similar in capital letter shaping, with the first one taking the form of a shadowed script which might at some time have had some form of relief on the left side of the letters, particularly if you see the elongated scratching to the left of the letters  L, W and E. which would have accommodated the relief marking, which obviously was not of the same permanence as the scratching !

The second one also has the boldness of the first one but without the relief etching !

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