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1.inch Signal Flare

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Does anyone have any information as to the packaging details for the 1.inch Signal Flare in use with the British Army for the WW1 period? I'm trying to find what the package was like, markings, how many flares to a package / box, labelling, colour and dimentions of the packaging.

Any information will be gratefully received.

Thank you in advance.

Seph

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The normal way of packing SAA in WWI was in paper bundles, ten for rifle, six for revolver etc. However, as the signal pistol cartridges were cardboard, they may well have been packed in tins.

However, here is a paper bundle for the 1" signal pistol cartridges that you will not see very often!

Regards

TonyE

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Thanks TonyE.... I had no idea that the flare cartridges would have been cardboard, as that must have posed a problem during damp weather, especially during storage at the front. Do you have any leads that I could possibly look into!

Seph

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Thanks TonyE.... I had no idea that the flare cartridges would have been cardboard, as that must have posed a problem during damp weather, especially during storage at the front. Do you have any leads that I could possibly look into!

Seph

Hello,

My grandfather was a small boy during first world war and was often among the soldiers that were on rest.

He lived in Poperinghe, just behind the Ypres front (so this was the restplace for the Commonwealth troops).

That way he had collected cartridges like this. Hereby a photo of a cardboard one.

The cardboard was quiet thick.

Regards,

Marc

post-46229-1266771162.jpg

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Thanks Mark, great stuff.

That's actually the first cardboard Flare Cartridge I've seen, so I'll be lifting the image for my files.. if that's OK? Can you post a pic of the metal base please?

Seph

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The red band marks it as a cartridge, signal, red, 1 inch.

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The bases of the cartridges are quite a common find, here 2 x 1 inch and a 1.5inch

That being said I don't know what the difference is between these and stokes firing cartridges. these are marked Eley London V. The 1.5 inch is just Eley London.

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another example, plus a Stokes cartridge

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pict0123.jpg

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pict0124.jpg

stokes10.jpg

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Thank you Uncle Bill long time no see.

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Thanks Mark, great stuff.

That's actually the first cardboard Flare Cartridge I've seen, so I'll be lifting the image for my files.. if that's OK? Can you post a pic of the metal base please?

Seph

I don't know when you were in Seph, but the alloy cased signal cartridges did not come into service until about the 1970s. In the sixties we were still using cardboard cased rounds. I will post pictures of the cartridges and tins tomorrow.

Regards

TonyE

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Mick - I was also about to post that the case heads with the "ELEY V" headstamps are the 1" Illuminating Mark V, and the Stokes propellant cartridge was a 12b, but Uncle Bill beat me to it!

Regards

TonyE

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I don't know when you were in Seph,

Regards

TonyE

October 1971 was my enlistment date TonyE B)

This thread is becoming very interesting... thank you to all who have contributed so far.

Uncle Bill, can you possibley post a few more pics of the Stokes cartridge box.... with dimensions? You've actually pre-empted my next thread, as, due to having a working reproduction Stokes 3.inch Mortar, I want to get the ancilleries together for living history.

If anyone has any information on the container for the Signal Flare, with any dimensions and markings... I'd be very grateful.

Seph

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Seph,

As a reference, here is a series of images of images for a tin of 1941 vintage.

Dimensions ;

Height 104mm

Width 90mm

Very similar packaging to the tin used for 14 x .303 Ballistite cartridges, in both world wars, but of course larger.

An old Keens mustard tin is similar if you want to make up a repro.

Chris Henschke

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post-671-1266808930.jpg

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Thank you Chris.

Due to your example being labelled for WW2, I'm a bit loath to use the same for the WW1 impression, unless I can verify as positive for use. I've found reference to a bulk package similar to the 1,000rd .303 box, so I'm chasing that one up. Also been informed of a small wooden flare box, possibly x50 content, but that lead is proving rather illusive at present.

I apreciate your imput, and it certainly will be considered... after a little more research.

All avenues are still open at the moment, so I'm hopeing that somewhere the much needed information will show itself.

Seph :)

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Mick - I was also about to post that the case heads with the "ELEY V" headstamps are the 1" Illuminating Mark V, and the Stokes propellant cartridge was a 12b, but Uncle Bill beat me to it!

Regards

TonyE

Yes just checked the Stokes round - the cartridge is 'Eley No12 GAS TIGHT'

Mick

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Seph - This does not help much with the packaging question, but I thought you might like to see these original 1917 Eley drawings I have of the various 1 inch signal cartridges.

The first one is for the Mark I and II aircraft signals. Mark I had a brass case and Mark II a paper case.

The second is for the Land service Mark V with paper case, although the Mark IV had a paper case.

The last one is interesting as it is not a flare, but a black streamer that is 66 inches long by 4.1 inches wide, used for daylight signalling.

Do you want me to post a picture of the WWI proof round from the packet I showed?

Regards

TonyE

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Thanks Mark, great stuff.

That's actually the first cardboard Flare Cartridge I've seen, so I'll be lifting the image for my files.. if that's OK? Can you post a pic of the metal base please?

Seph

Hi Seph,

No problem concerning your question to store it in your files. Sorry I could not answer earlier on your question but here the photos of the cupper you still asked.

I inserted 2 different ones.The NV one has a none coloured paperwork

Regards,

Marc

post-46229-1267818939.jpg

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I don't know when you were in Seph, but the alloy cased signal cartridges did not come into service until about the 1970s. In the sixties we were still using cardboard cased rounds. I will post pictures of the cartridges and tins tomorrow.

Regards

TonyE

Alloy cased very pistol cartridges were certainly in uk use in the early 1960's Tony, I seem to remember that they had a very thick rim (possibly 2.5mm) and had very deep serrations round about a third of the rims circumference, almost like gear teeth. They were supplied in tins of 3 at that time and it was a toss up whether paper or alloy cased flares were issued. Probably a stock level thing. As a teenager, I used to suppliment my spending money by collecting spent cartridges from our local military training area and weighing them in at the local scrap yard. Very pistol cases accumulated slowly but they were worth collecting. That would be 1965/1966

I have a couple of unmolested WW1 brass very pistol cases around somewhere but I must admit to being a philistine and drilling the primers out of many to fit American shotgun primers so the cases could be used in old wildfowling guns. That was in the days when surplus shells like that were still obtainable and sold by firms such as Longstaffs

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Alloy cased very pistol cartridges were certainly in uk use in the early 1960's Tony, I seem to remember that they had a very thick rim (possibly 2.5mm) and had very deep serrations round about a third of the rims circumference, almost like gear teeth. They were supplied in tins of 3 at that time and it was a toss up whether paper or alloy cased flares were issued. Probably a stock level thing. As a teenager, I used to suppliment my spending money by collecting spent cartridges from our local military training area and weighing them in at the local scrap yard. Very pistol cases accumulated slowly but they were worth collecting. That would be 1965/1966

I have a couple of unmolested WW1 brass very pistol cases around somewhere but I must admit to being a philistine and drilling the primers out of many to fit American shotgun primers so the cases could be used in old wildfowling guns. That was in the days when surplus shells like that were still obtainable and sold by firms such as Longstaffs

I am sure you are right. I should have been more precise, as I was talking about the 1961-62 time frame when I said we were using carboard cased rounds.

The alloy cased rims do indeed appear thick, but they must be the same as the brass based ones to ensure interchangeability.

Regards

TonyE

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I remember us (British Army) moving from being issued paper cartridges to the aluminium types in the (very) late 60s early 70s. They were used in the Molins type pistol.

The aluminium types er not liked at all. Because they were very a slack fit and made of metal one could not keep a pistols loaded due the noise plus loading quietly was also a problem.

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BH,

When I did my baby course in the late 70's the cardboard carts were still 'Obsolescent', that may well be for exactly the reason you mention. as you know we tend to hold on to 'good kit' as long as we can get away with it.

Rod

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Hello,

If i understood correctly these two are Stokes shells?

pardon my ignorance, Stokes shells are the shell propellent?

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Thanks

Assaf

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Stokes Mortar and these appear to be from the mortar round itself. I believe these were on the base of the shell and were part of the propellant. They were on the base of a tube which had propellant rings wrapped around. Difficult to explain in words.

TT

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