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J. Carl

Crime & Punishment

19 posts in this topic

I am researching the service record of a local veteran, Frank J. Lycett, CEF, #402564 and could use some assistance from Forum members. Attached is a copy of part of his his CEF file. This attachment contains a notation regarding his absence from his unit (9th Reserve Battalion, C.T.D.), while stationed in England, at Shorncliffe, and the subsequent sentence of loss of pay and F. P. 2 (Field Punishment #2?).

I will also include a copy of part of his pay record, included in a follow up post due to file size limitations. It appears to me that Frank Lycett was absent from his unit for 10 days. As a result, his pay was docked for his 10 days absence plus an additional punishment of 10 days loss of pay and Field Punishment #2. This raises two questions for me.

1) Is my interpretation of his records correct? And, if so ....

2) Is this a typical punishment for an absence of this length? My limited experience with battalion war diaries and other sources leads me to believe that this particular punishment for 10 days absence seems to be very lenient. I am interested in getting the thoughts of other forum members on this topic.

Regards,

J. Carl

post-109991-0-81329700-1401679716_thumb.

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Here is the additional attachment.

post-109991-0-68357500-1401680998_thumb.

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Hi,

In miltary, as well as in civilian life, it is very rare for any 2 "identical" crimes to be treated in exactly the same way in respect of sentence passed by the court.

As well as the circumstances leading to the commission of the offence being different you also need to consider any mitigation offered prior to semtence being passed by the court.

Steve Y

PS

I assume you are aware of CEFSG Forum?

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Maybe a good soldier otherwise. Did he have family in UK he went to see? I've always heard the Canadian forces were a bit more lenient at times in handing out punishments. If he came back on his own, did not remove his uniform, did not strike an officer or nco or MP or offer violence anywhere, then docking his pay seems right to me. The extra 10 days is the "go and sin no more" part & hopefully he learned his lesson.

Did he get to a combat unit & did he survive the war or did he embark on a career of "misunderstandings" between himself & the KR's?

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It doesn't actually say that he was absent for 10 days, just that he was absent. Note the full stop after "absent". For this offence he was given 10 days FP No, 2 and docked 10 days pay. Maybe not so lenient, depending on how long he was absent, and what he was absent from.

Tom

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Two entries not two "crimes". First entry is the "crime", second entry is the punishment. See the ditto marks for the date of and place of the offence.

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Thank you to all for the information.

Frank Lycett was one of thousands of British Home Children who served in the CEF. He came to Canada in 1911 as 15 year old, to work as a farm labourer. He enlisted in January 1915 and arrived in England in August of that year. Shortly after his arrival in England he was absent. This was the one and only disciplinary notation on his file.

He did still have two siblings at orphanages in England (one at St. Paul's Home,Coleshill, Birmingham) and a father whose address was unknown at the time of Frank Lycett's attestation. Was he absent because he was trying to visit his family or find his father? That is a possibility. If he was trying to visit family, as opposed, say, to visit all of the pubs in the area, would his punishment reflect that? Did military justice take the circumstances into account or did it simply not work that way? Thanks to tullybrone for the clarification.

Shortly after his brush with the law, Frank Lycett was transferred to the Royal Canadian Regiment. Sadly, he did not survive the war. He was killed in action on the 7th of March, 1916 and is buried at Kemmel Chateau military cemetery.

J. Carl

PS; to answer tullybrone, yes I am aware of the CEFSG and have recently joined that forum. I am having some trouble learning how to post images there but I will eventually get it right. Thanks.

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Thanks for the sad follow up. If his only misstep in the army he seems a good soldier or maybe never got caught again. But I prefer to think he was seeing family & his CO took that into consideration when setting punishment for him. He didn't even add extra duty, just hit him where it always hurts most, the payroll.

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I read the punishment as "absent', ten days field punishment number two (ie.,) marching in 'irons' and ten days forfeiture of pay also struck off strength

khaki

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From the different handwriting, I would say that "struck off strength" refers to his transfer to the RCR.

Ron

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I believe that Ron is correct. Struck off strength to RCR is dated 8-10-15 (the date is cut off from my original post). From what I have been able to determine, Frank Lycett was reunited with his brother, Frederick Lycett #477553, who was already serving with the RCR's at that time. Eventually the brothers served together in 'B' Company.

Frederick Lycett came to Canada, as another of many British Home Children, a year earlier than his brother Frank. I haven't been able to determine where either brother lived while in Canada (still working on it!). It is possible that the brothers were able to stay in contact while in Canada but it seems likely that their reunion in the Royal Canadian Regiment was the first that they had seen each other in several years. To add a sad footnote to an already sad story, Frederick Lycett did not survive the war either. He was still with the RCR's when he died 26-Aug-1918. Frederick Lycett is commemorated on the Vimy Memorial.

J. Carl

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It is possible that punishments given at training camps were stricter to give the men a 'frightner'. To try and deter men from similar actions when in France?

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punishment was dished out on a regular basis .... here's a B Company entry 25th battalion CEF 1915 entry for one day from the officers order book ...and every day has at least one punishment

25th CEF page.jpg

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What's the three letter word after pay?

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Which line is it on? Pay is shown a few times followed by awarded 7 days confined to barracks?

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1 minute ago, johnboy said:

Which line is it on? Pay is shown a few times followed by awarded 7 days confined to barracks?

 

Stumped me too. Think he's referring to the document in the OP.

 

Looks like P&A to me at first glance.

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Yes, first doc.  Yes p+a agreed thank you  but why pay, pay and allowances?

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14 minutes ago, IPT said:

 

Stumped me too. Think he's referring to the document in the OP.

 

Looks like P&A to me at first glance.

 You mean the one posted in 2014?!!

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Yes, post id1

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