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pjwmacro

22nd Battery Machine Gun Corps (Motors)

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My grandfather served with 22 Bty Motor Machine Gun Service, India from 1916 to 1919, including when attached to the Kurram Frontier Force for the 3rd Afghan War. Looking for any information about the battery.  I know the basics -  formed in April 1916 in India and was attached to 4th (Rawalpindi) Brigade in 2nd (Rawalpindi) Division. I think it was disbanded in 1922 with the rest of the MGC. I have seen the battery War Diary at TNA.  Curious if anyone knows more details:

  • is there an official order to establish the battery?
  • what were they actually doing from April 16 until the 3rd Afghan war?
  • what were they doing from the end of the 3rd Afghan War until disbandment?
  • Who served with them - I have some names, but not many
  • What happened to those serving with the battery when the MGC was disbanded - did they transfer to the Tank Corps?

Thanks very much for any help.

Paul Macro

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ID: 2   Posted (edited)

There is a photograph at the National Army Museum which mentions this Battery

https://collection.nam.ac.uk/detail.php?acc=1982-02-31-174

 

There are also some images in this link, https://new.liveauctioneers.com/item/21188345_india-rawalpindi-22-battery-motor-machine-guns described as [India] - Rawalpindi 22 Battery Motor Machine Guns (Motorcycle) - India 1917. There are two pages, showing a total of eight photographs., the final four are labelled "Crossing river - Jhang" (2) Crossing dry river bed- R'Pindi [Rawalpindi]" and "At T..(?) Gun -Rawalpindi"

Cheers

Maureen

Edit: not great quality, but images posted were quite small, and my technical skills are also small.

Screen Shot 2017-04-16 at 2.10.30 pm.png

Screen Shot 2017-04-16 at 2.11.46 pm.png

Screen Shot 2017-04-16 at 2.14.12 pm.png

Screen Shot 2017-04-16 at 2.16.13 pm.png

Edited by Maureene

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Maureen many thanks for coming back. I have found the NAM photos - there is a possibility that the prone figure behind the combination is my grandfather - my Father believes so - but I think that the NAM sent him the photos when he lodged my grandfather's report of his action with them - I think the case is unproven!

I have also found the auction photos - sadly the aution house won't tell me who sold or bought the pictures. But thank you for responding . I do need to try the IWM in case there are oral histories recorded - and i think the majority of Indian Army records are lodged with the British Museum. Best wishes Paul

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I recently realised there are five editions of the magazine The Machine Gunner published September 1920-February 1921 on a Proquest database called "Trench Journals and Unit Magazines of the First World War", which I can access. (This database is available at the British Library and no doubt elsewhere)

 

I could not see the 22nd Battery mentioned at all in any of the five issues, so I think the likelihood is that it had disbanded by 30 September 1920.

 

It was obvious from the Journals that it was known that the Machine Gun Corps would be disbanded, it just wasn't known when.

 

The Journals indicated that the 7th and 8th Battalions which were formed in the UK at the beginning of 1920 for sending to India, which arrived in March, and their families in April, were disbanded in November of the same year, the "retainable" personnel posted to other Battalions in India.  "Disbandment of the 9th, 11th and 12th Battalions will not now take place this coming trooping season"

 

Cheers

Maureen

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Interesting who ever wrote on these photos considered themselves MMGS rather than MGC(M).

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ID: 6   Posted (edited)

Paul

 

22 Bty was in India from 1916, but certainly was not taken over by the Tank Corps. This is unlike the Indian Army Armoured Motor Batteries, a number of whom were taken over by the Tank Corps in 1921. They were equipped with armoured cars, while 22 Bty had motor-cycle combinations and was a British Army unit.

 

Charles M

 

PS Welcome to the Forum!

 

 

 

 

Edited by charlesmessenger

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Maureen - thank you - I`ll look into this and see if I can find the magazines.  I`m really curious to know where the battery's official formation and disbandment documents are - they must have existed at some point - there must have been an official order. In date terms you could well be right that they disbanded in 1920 - certainly my grandfather had demobbed by then, and the man I believe to be the battery OC (Maj A W Molony, R Dub Fus, att MGC(M)) retired in 1920 (I think!).

 

David - I don't think this is unusual - those who where MMGS, definitely thought of themselves as "Motors" first - MGC 2nd.  The Battery War Diary is marked as diary of "22 Motor Machine Gun Battery."

 

Charles - thank you. Understood - I suspect the majority of the men came home (like my grandfather) - I wonder if any transferred into the Tank Corps.  I guess more likely those who had joined after the war in Europe ended - perhaps still had service to complete, so transferred onto other units.

 

Regards, Paul

 

 

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ID: 8   Posted (edited)

Dear Paul,

I have an IPM medal group to an erstwhile Gnr James Dyer, MMGC, who served with 11th A. M. Bty. (Armoured Cars), and was demobilized in India following Third Afghan.

He then joined the Calcutta Police in the rank of Sergeant (later becoming an Inspector, but died young). 

Kindest regards,

Kim.58f6a5ccaf7ae_DwyerMedalRollforIGSM.thumb.jpg.d38b348b9423c04a5432770307993fdd.jpg58f6a5fa7b4ad_Dwyer1.jpg.fef56e985c83940e9d62f8c6c1c1eaa7.jpg58f6a60e76aac_DwyerMIC.jpg.b9734514292e8176055f347880da4a06.jpg

Edited by Kimberley John Lindsay

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14 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

Maureen - thank you - I`ll look into this and see if I can find the magazines.  I`m really curious to know where the battery's official formation and disbandment documents are - they must have existed at some point - there must have been an official order. In date terms you could well be right that they disbanded in 1920 - certainly my grandfather had demobbed by then, and the man I believe to be the battery OC (Maj A W Molony, R Dub Fus, att MGC(M)) retired in 1920 (I think!).

 

David - I don't think this is unusual - those who where MMGS, definitely thought of themselves as "Motors" first - MGC 2nd.  The Battery War Diary is marked as diary of "22 Motor Machine Gun Battery."

 

Charles - thank you. Understood - I suspect the majority of the men came home (like my grandfather) - I wonder if any transferred into the Tank Corps.  I guess more likely those who had joined after the war in Europe ended - perhaps still had service to complete, so transferred onto other units.

 

Regards, Paul

 

 

Paul. The reason for my comment was that  by the time when 22nd Battery was formed the MMGS had already been absorbed into the Machine Gun Corps, So it was not a MMGS unit as such. This was a time of transition when many of the original MMGS batteries were disbanded and the personnel re assigned into MGC Motors or Heavy Section. As the battery was formed in India it's probable that experienced  officers and other ranks were sent out to set up the new unit. It's also possible the equipment came from another disbanded battery and shipped out to India. My grandfather was in one of the early MMGS batteries and then re allocated to MGC(Motors) on armoured cars. The original MMGS other ranks are identifiable by their low service numbers (under 2775). Those for sure most likely considered themselves "originals" within the Motors, and the Motors were a thing apart from the MGC! If you can post your Grandfather's name/service number and any other names you have I can check in my MMGS data.

Regarding service after the war these men had volunteered on duration of the war attestations but kept on fighting. In my grandfathers unit they were only released for demob when they received replacements who they had to train up to combat ready.

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David 

Thank you for that - please forgive delayed reply. I think you are right - my Grandfather was also one of the originals - 1658 Cpl Ernest William Macro, enlisted 1915 - I'm not sure where - his MIC survives, but I have never located his service record, and I have his MiD notification. I am guessing he trained at Bisley, and then shipped to India in Feb 16. I have located the shipping  record of the OC and officers + 68 NCOs and men - and if you look at the right hand side you can see the shipping record of the motorcycles, combinations and cars!

I will post a separate thread in the soldiers section with the names that I know.

Regards

Paul

20170406_164832.jpg

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That looks an interesting schedule. Was it from the National Archives Kew, and if so  could you advise the  catalogue reference.

 

Would it be be possible to rotate the image and repost ?

 

Cheers

Maureen

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8 hours ago, Maureene said:

That looks an interesting schedule. Was it from the National Archives Kew, and if so  could you advise the  catalogue reference.

 

Would it be be possible to rotate the image and repost ?

 

Cheers

Maureen

Maueen 

Yes -  photographed in TNA Kew - should I have referenced the post?  it's from WO 25/3544 

Regards Paul

 

20170406_164832.jpg

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Thanks Paul. I haven't seen this type of record, so I was curious as to where it came from.

 

Cheers

Maureen

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7 hours ago, Maureene said:

Thanks Paul. I haven't seen this type of record, so I was curious as to where it came from.

 

Cheers

Maureen

Maureen

I believe they are also available through or transcribed into FMP and Ancestry. Sadly though they very rarely have anything other than officers names unless individual soldier reinforcements were travelling. However, this particular record did have instances listed of officers wives shipping  out to join husbands in India and Malta.

Regards

Paul 

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Thanks for your comments Paul.   I am aware that there are very limited WO25 records in the Ancestry database Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900, but I didn't know there were any WO 25 records for the WW1 period on either Ancestry of findmypast.  Do you know what the databases are called on Ancestry/findmypast?

 

Cheers

Maureen

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ID: 16   Posted (edited)

On ‎4‎/‎15‎/‎2017 at 20:39, pjwmacro said:

My grandfather served with 22 Bty Motor Machine Gun Service, India from 1916 to 1919, including when attached to the Kurram Frontier Force for the 3rd Afghan War. Looking for any information about the battery.  I know the basics -  formed in April 1916 in India and was attached to 4th (Rawalpindi) Brigade in 2nd (Rawalpindi) Division. I think it was disbanded in 1922 with the rest of the MGC. I have seen the battery War Diary at TNA.  Curious if anyone knows more details:

  • is there an official order to establish the battery?
  • what were they actually doing from April 16 until the 3rd Afghan war?
  • what were they doing from the end of the 3rd Afghan War until disbandment?
  • Who served with them - I have some names, but not many
  • What happened to those serving with the battery when the MGC was disbanded - did they transfer to the Tank Corps?

Thanks very much for any help.

Paul Macro

pjwmacro:

My grandfather James Petrie Jamieson (born 1892 in Dysart; died 1971 Hamilton) was also with the 22 Battery Motor Machine Gun Service, India from 1916 to 1919.  He was 24 years old in 1916.   I have his photo album with many though small black and white pictures from that time.  Our grandfathers were lucky to have been there and not France!  I cannot answer your above questions, but do have a few names from the album and will provide if you wish.  As to what they were doing, from the pictures is seem to me they were having a "relatively speaking" nice time of it.  I have a picture of Major Molony at Fort Kohat taken in 1916 and mentioned in an above posting.  My grandfather spelled his name Maloney, but he is listed (above) as Molony, which is probably a spelling error by my grandfather. 

 

Here is an image of Molony I scanned in from my grandfather's album...

 

Moloney_650x624.png.4db624f39d9b704b3056e820ed8ed314.png

Edited by JPJamie
Adding image of Moloney

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6 hours ago, JPJamie said:

pjwmacro:

My grandfather was also with the 22 Battery Motor Machine Gun Service, India from 1916 to 1919.  I have his photo album with many though small black and white pictures from that time.  Our grandfathers were lucky to have been there and not France!  I cannot answer your above questions, but do have a few names from the album and will provide if you wish.  As to what they were doing, from the pictures is seem to me they were having a "relatively speaking" nice time of it.  I have a picture of Major Molony at Fort Kohat taken in 1916 and mentioned in an above posting.  My grandfather spelled his name Maloney, but he is listed (above) as Molony, which is probably a spelling error by my grandfather. 

 

Here is an image of Molony I scanned in from my grandfather's album...

 

Moloney_650x624.png.4db624f39d9b704b3056e820ed8ed314.png

 

 

JpJamie - Wow - great to make contact with you. I have the same picture from my grandfather's album! My grandfather was 1658 Cpl (A/Sjt) Ernest William Macro.. What was your grandfathers name and do you have any idea which section of the battery he was in? I'll post some more photos from my grandfathers collection and would love to see more of your grandfathers - and learn names where you may know them.  See my post in the soldiers section of this forum under 22 Bty MMGS for the names I know - a number of which were provided by David Murdoch checking the medal roles. So far as what they got up to I certainly don't think it compared to the fighting on the Western Front or other European and Middle Eastern theatres - but you only have to read any accounts of the 3rd Afghan War to realise it wasn't pleasant!

With regards the Bty OC. See my post in the soldiers section Alexander Weldon Molony. I am convinced this is the same man who was a Capt with 1 Royal Dubs W Coy on board the River Clyde at Helles on 25 Apr 15. He was then attached MMGS and shipped to India Feb 16 as OC 22 Bty.

Please message me through this site if you want to exchange email addresses for swapping photos.

Regards,  Paul Macro

 

 

FB_IMG_1487458143662.jpg

20160724_224600.jpg

MMG at action.jpg

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On 25/04/2017 at 00:33, Maureene said:

Thanks for your comments Paul.   I am aware that there are very limited WO25 records in the Ancestry database Canada, British Regimental Registers of Service, 1756-1900, but I didn't know there were any WO 25 records for the WW1 period on either Ancestry of findmypast.  Do you know what the databases are called on Ancestry/findmypast?

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

Sorry Maureen. Only just realised I hadn't answered. However, I am not sure I can help. A FB contact in a geneology group sent me a transcript - I then visited TNA and looked at theoriginal record, which is the photo I posted.

Regards, Paul

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12 hours ago, pjwmacro said:

 

 

JpJamie - Wow - great to make contact with you. I have the same picture from my grandfather's album! My grandfather was 1658 Cpl (A/Sjt) Ernest William Macro.. What was your grandfathers name and do you have any idea which section of the battery he was in? I'll post some more photos from my grandfathers collection and would love to see more of your grandfathers - and learn names where you may know them.  See my post in the soldiers section of this forum under 22 Bty MMGS for the names I know - a number of which were provided by David Murdoch checking the medal roles. So far as what they got up to I certainly don't think it compared to the fighting on the Western Front or other European and Middle Eastern theatres - but you only have to read any accounts of the 3rd Afghan War to realise it wasn't pleasant!

With regards the Bty OC. See my post in the soldiers section Alexander Weldon Molony. I am convinced this is the same man who was a Capt with 1 Royal Dubs W Coy on board the River Clyde at Helles on 25 Apr 15. He was then attached MMGS and shipped to India Feb 16 as OC 22 Bty.

Please message me through this site if you want to exchange email addresses for swapping photos.

Regards,  Paul Macro

 

MMG at action.jpg

Paul. Been looking at this photo on the computer. It appears all three of them have some form of insignia on the puggarees of their tropical helmets. I tried blowing this up and playing with the contrast to try and see it better. As with the L.A.M.B photos I have they wore MMG cap badge on soft caps. This is something different and may be an individual unit badge (home/locally produced). On the almost side view it looks quite "lumpy". Maybe you have another photo with a better view of it? In some of the pictures I have of my grandfather and his mates they tend to hold their tropical helmets so as to show off the badges.

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ID: 20   Posted (edited)

PJWMACRO:

I went WOW as well! 

 

My name is James Petrie Jamieson (2nd).

I was named after my grandfather, James Petrie Jamieson

 

I am sure, he was in Section 1 as in the picture below.

He is front row right with the watch on his left wrist.,,,

Grandfather_Group_650x496.png.0be880b3111b53c3d11c048285dc85d8.png

 

First off I have many images my grandfather pasted into his album. 

I'm not sure, but wonder if they were issued albums of the same kind. 

 

All images (of course) are black and white and small. 

He wrote names under some of the men in the photographs. 

My grandfather was a bit of a "calligrapher" and as a result some of his writing is hard to decipher, but I can make out most.  I have group images and one is of Section #2 Football Team.  I will upload a picture this team as it shows all the men.  Don't understand the section thing and also since I'm not a military man, don't understand much of the organization terminology and the numbers of men in each section etc. 

 

I do digital photography and videography as a part of my job.  

Also work a lot with Adobe Photoshop 5.5.2 and can size, cleanup etc. images.  

Will scan some images from his album and upload them here, especially if requested.

 

My grandfather didn't put many first names under the photographs, but I'm sure last names will help.

Update: May 14th 2017, alphabetized the name listing, added Keddie and placed last names first for easier search.

Update: May 26th 2017: bolded names below have pictures posted on this thread.

Update: June 4th 2017: bolded my grandfather's number assignment as Gunner/Acting Cpl., added and bolded Telfer, Girdwood, Parker and Fielder  thanks to David Murdoch's research.

Update: June 6th 2017: added image of Edward Collins 1622 Gunner and Louclen

Update: June 8th  2017:  added image of Frank Taylor on motorcycle.

Update: June 9th  2017:  anchor linked names to images

Update: June 24th  2017:  added Edgar William Davis to names

 

Botteril, George 2419 Gunner 

Collins, Edward "Ted" Gunner 1622

Davis, Edgar William; Private M2/115535 ASC "Attd 22nd Battery MMGC"

Dowie, Alexander Morrison 1618 (grandfather labeled as banker, probably later in life)   

Duncan

Fielder, Alfred James M2/100503 Army Service Corps,Attd. MGC(M)

Gilmour, Alan #2420 (may have been injured as picture is of him in a hospital bed)

Girdwood, John Private M2/097864 Army Service Corps

Jamieson, James Petrie 1565 Gunner/Acting Cpl.

Keddie, Charles Gunner (Old Address: 12 Shaw Street, "Pilrig" Edinburgh, Scotland)

Kilgour

Lafferty, William Lafferty 1567 Gunner

Lawrie David Griffith 1445 Gunner

Laws

Louden, Robert Gunner 1443

Parker, Frederick Harvey 79482 (possible) Gunner 79482 (possible)  

Patrick, Walter

Rodger, J.

Ross (labeled as a banker)

Stewart, Tommy

Sutcliffe, Arthur 1592 Cpl.

Taylor, Frank

Telfer, William F. 1600 Gunner

Thomson, J.

Ward, Albert 1604 A/WOI.

Weston, Ralph H. 1753 Gunner

 

The images below may have been shared with your grandfather and you may also have them as they are larger. 

My grandfather is in the lower image, second row, center seated with pipe in his mouth. 

 

Section2_Football_Team_800x523.png.548ebdf5881120f7067db376d56ea89e.png

 

Kuldana_Group_800x544.png.ff8301a66efca1c53d6fda36941a9a2a.png

Edited by JPJamie

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ID: 21   Posted (edited)

James/Paul. I don't have an entry for him yet on my MMGS. Looks like he was listed James Jamieson 1565 Gunner/Acting Cpl. I did not pick him up on the GSM medal roll for North West Frontier, but will double check (on saying that he does not have the GSM stamp on his meda card)  He's on the roll for British War Medal only (like the others in 22nd) as did not qualify for the Victory Medal due to being in India during the war years. He maybe did not get the GSM clasp if he rotated home before the qualifying date. On the BWM roll his discharge date was 1/1/1920. Couple of the names on the  roster list from the other thread Telfer and Sutcliffe come up in James's post.

James. Was he Scottish per chance, as  this service number is close to a couple of Scottish casualties on my list.

Edited by david murdoch

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1 hour ago, david murdoch said:

James/Paul. I don't have an entry for him yet on my MMGS. Looks like he was listed James Jamieson 1565 Gunner/Acting Cpl. I did not pick him up on the GSM medal roll for North West Frontier, but will double check (on saying that he does not have the GSM stamp on his meda card)  He's on the roll for British War Medal only (like the others in 22nd) as did not qualify for the Victory Medal due to being in India during the war years. He maybe did not get the GSM clasp if he rotated home before the qualifying date. On the BWM roll his discharge date was 1/1/1920. Couple of the names on the  roster list from the other thread Telfer and Sutcliffe come up in James's post.

James. Was he Scottish per chance, as  this service number is close to a couple of Scottish casualties on my list.

 

Thanks for this David!

Yes he was Scottish.  He probably left out the P (Petrie) when he signed.  My father (his son) and our entire family left Scotland in 1963.  He didn't talk much about India.  I just knew he had been there.  Didn't ask him much about it as I was about 14 when I last saw him.  I could tell he liked motorcycles and had a small "moped" in Hamilton, Scotland where he lived while we all lived in Scotland.  I never associated his "moped" with his service in India. I never saw the British War Medal, but he probably had it tucked away somewhere.        

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Great photos. I wonder if you all would consider sending a copy of your photos to FIBIS for inclusion in the FIBIS Gallery https://gallery.fibis.org

Should you be willing to do this, could you please contact the Website  Manager, email address within this link https://www.fibis.org/contact/

 

8 hours ago, david murdoch said:

 In some of the pictures I have of my grandfather and his mates they tend to hold their tropical helmets so as to show off the badges.

 Photograph: Edwin Cross and comrades, Machine Gun Corps with machine gun and also showing tropical helmets with flash. Edwin Cross appears to have been in 283 Machine Gun Company. Is the flash/badge shown in the Edwin Cross photo the same as the flash/badge in your grandfather's photos?

 

Cheers

Maureen

 

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ID: 24   Posted (edited)

Found on BWM only medal roll.

 Couple were previously identified as 22nd Battery from the GSM roll. These new names do not appear on the GSM,North West Frontier clasp roll, as presumably did not qualify for it. They are not noted on the  BWM roll as being 22nd Battery, but the names match, and they have the same early 1920 discharge dates, and on pages with previously identified 22nd Battery men. They are all low  MMGS service numbers and some consecutive or very close ones who must have enlisted together, and Scottish names. I picked them  up on Scotlands People - David Griffith Lawrie born 20/2/1892 Edinburgh. Alexander Morrison Dowie born 1895 Kingsbarns in Fife, Married 1922 in Aberdeen - profession on marriage certificate - Bank Accountant!

 

Lawrie:- Gunner David Griffith Lawrie 1445

Kilgour :- Gunner Alexander Kilgour 1441

Ralph Weston:- Gunner Ralph H. Weston 1753

Fielder:-

Laws:- Gunner Harry Edward Laws 2298

Dowie (labeled as a banker...probably later in life) :- Gunner Alexander Morrison Dowie 1618

Tommy Stewart:- Cpl. Thomas Stewart 1599 (probable)

J. Thomson:-

Telfer:- Cpl. William Frederick Telfer 1600

Ross (labeled as a banker)

Ward:- A/WOI. Albert Ward 1604

J. Rodger:-

Parker:- Gunner Frederick Harvey Parker 79482 (possible)

Alan Gilmour (may have been injured as picture is of him in a hospital bed)

Girdwood:-

Louclen:- Gunner Robert Louden 1443

Patrick:- A/Cpl. Walter Patrick 1621

Collins:- Gunner Edward Collins 1622

Sutcliffe:- Cpl. Arthur Sutcliffe 1592

Duncan:-

Edited by david murdoch

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ID: 25   Posted (edited)

39 minutes ago, david murdoch said:

Found on BWM only medal roll.

 Couple were previously identified as 22nd Battery from the GSM roll. These new names do not appear on the GSM,North West Frontier clasp roll, as presumably did not qualify for it. They are not noted on the  BWM roll as being 22nd Battery, but the names match, and they have the same early 1920 discharge dates, and on pages with previously identified 22nd Battery men. They are all low  MMGS service numbers and some consecutive or very close ones who must have enlisted together, and Scottish names. I picked them  up on Scotlands People - David Griffith Lawrie born 20/2/1892 Edinburgh. Alexander Morrison Dowie born 1895 Kingsbarns in Fife, Married 1922 in Aberdeen - profession on marriage certificate - Bank Accountant!

 

Lawrie:- Gunner David Griffith Lawrie 1445

Kilgour :- Gunner Alexander Kilgour 1441

Ralph Weston:- Gunner Ralph H. Weston 1753

Fielder:-

Laws:- Gunner Harry Edward Laws 2298

Dowie (labeled as a banker...probably later in life) :- Gunner Alexander Morrison Dowie 1618

Tommy Stewart:- Cpl. Thomas Stewart 1599 (probable)

J. Thomson:- L/Cpl. J.M. Thomson 2171 (possible)

Telfer:- Cpl. William Frederick Telfer 1600

Ross (labeled as a banker)

Ward:- A/WOI. Albert Ward 1609

J. Rodger:-

Parker:- Gunner Frederick Harvey Parker 79482 (possible)

Alan Gilmour (may have been injured as picture is of him in a hospital bed)

Girdwood:-

Louclen:- Gunner Robert Louden 1443

Patrick:- A/Cpl. Walter Patrick 1621

Collins:- Gunner Edward Collins 1622

Sutcliffe:- Cpl. Arthur Sutcliffe 1592

Duncan:-

 

That was quick David - thank you.

 

James - if you can provide photos of any the above that would be a massive step forward.

Regards, Paul

Edited by pjwmacro

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