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mtaylor

Bayonets / Bergmann MP18 help with stamps

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I saw these bayonets and a Bergmann MP18 in a local country house recently. Could anyone help me with the interpretation of the regimental stamps / markings please?

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P1020488c.jpg

P1020499c.jpg

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On the Bergmann stock, "1. K." must be "1st Company", but the rest does not ring a bell. I had not realized that they had already

started to distribute them to units. Or, perhaps, is is a post-war stamp. It was planned to eventually issue one to each infantry squad 

leader, to provide automatic fire down to the squad level, much like the WW II German Army issued a 9 mm machine pistol like the MP

42 to infantry squad leaders,

 

My father's cell leader in the Schwartze Reichswehr had one.

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Bob -thank you for the start. My German is non-existent so I wouldn't have got that far!

Mike

 

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Just looked again, and I have more of it. I first read the tail of it as "J.R. 4G", but looking at it again I realize that it is "I.R. 46", or 

"Infantrie=Regiment 46".  I read a lot of German, but never bothered finding out why in those days they often wrote "I" as "J".

But they did. The middle characters are either "P A." or "P. 4." But the "P" is the only really unambiguous character. Neither reading

rings (another) bell. 

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First one is '13.P.E.3.116' on a S.98/05 a.A., and so off-hand, without checking (late here in Turkey!), it is Pionier Bataillon 13, 3.Ersatz Bataillon/Kompagnie, Waffe 116.

 

Second is 'R.E.1.25.' but it is missing its first number and as the grip shows it to be a S.71/84, this must be a refurbished one, and so it is a S.71/84 n.A., originally issued as Waffe 25 to the 1 Kompagnie of the Ersatz Bataillon (the 'R.E.') of an infantry regiment, but the number removed when the muzzle-ring section was taken off... It might be possible, if I check my records, to suggest which State that regiment came from, but no idea as to the regiment...

 

The last one does looks to be a Weimar marking (and so not my territory!), but is missing a back-slash, usual on post-1922 weapons... Again, too late to properly check... But while '1.K.P4.JR.46'  looks like it could be for the 1st Kompagnie and/or pioneer section of the 46 Infantry regiment, I don't think off-hand Weimar had that many regiments.  I'll see if I can do more on this (and no. 2) tomorrow (Monday), but a busy day with a visiting lecturer...

 

Trajan

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Dear Bob and Trajan - many thanks indeed for the additional info. The MP18 is dated 1918 (which doesn't mean it can't be Weimar of course) but I suspect it was 'souvenired' at the end of the FWW.

 

M

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23 hours ago, mtaylor said:

Dear Bob and Trajan - many thanks indeed for the additional info. The MP18 is dated 1918 (which doesn't mean it can't be Weimar of course) but I suspect it was 'souvenired' at the end of the FWW.

 

Not had a chance to look into those markings yet...

 

On 16.04.2017 at 21:57, trajan said:

... Second is 'R.E.1.25.' but it is missing its first number and as the grip shows it to be a S.71/84, this must be a refurbished one, and so it is a S.71/84 n.A., originally issued as Waffe 25 to the 1 Kompagnie of the Ersatz Bataillon (the 'R.E.') of an infantry regiment, but the number removed when the muzzle-ring section was taken off... It might be possible, if I check my records, to suggest which State that regiment came from, but no idea as to the regiment...

 

That'll teach me to do things late at night just before bed!

 

This one was originally a 71/84 (and probably a 71/84a.A and probably made 1887 or 1888 when Luneschloss were most active making these). It was then convereted/refurbished 1908-1909 by having the muzzle ring removed and being rehilted to make it fixable to the Gew and Kar 98 standard, so becoming a S.84/98 a.A., NOT a 71/84 n,A....

 

I only have 10 regimentally-marked Luneschloss-made 71/84 on record, two later converted to 84/98 a.A standard, and all of these are marked for one or other Prussian unit.  

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Do you have a photo of the whole of the MP18?  Which type of magazine does it have? 

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Bob - thank you. It is indeed Luneschloss dated 1888.

Mick - pics attached but no magazine present.

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P1020503c.jpg

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The lack of a '1920' mark on the MP 18 suggests to me that it was probably a GW bring-back. The relevant regulations for the '1920' marking on the MP 18 was top centre of the magazine holder. Yes, it could well have been secreted away from the authorities, but I do prefer the simpler explanation!

 

Julian

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I think everything, including the absence of the original snail magazine (stick magazines are less easily separated), points to the Bergmann being a GW-issued weapon.

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Hi Mick,

 

Is the serial number on this ok for an early issue? NOT my field, but I thought that these numbers went up in blocks of 9,999, and this looks to be a 'C', and so is the 2,377th(?)... Also, what is the meaning of the designation 'M.P.18.1' - first model? And what is that crossed swords mark - there is a D and an A there, but...???

 

Julian

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'Crossed sword' is an easy one - Birmingham Proof House  deactivation mark - 1989 in this case. 

Thanks both for the extra info.

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14 hours ago, mtaylor said:

'Crossed sword' is an easy one - Birmingham Proof House  deactivation mark - 1989 in this case. 

Thanks both for the extra info.

 

:doh: Ah well, learn somehting new every day...!

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15 hours ago, trajan said:

Hi Mick,

Is the serial number on this ok for an early issue? NOT my field, but I thought that these numbers went up in blocks of 9,999, and this looks to be a 'C', and so is the 2,377th(?)... Also, what is the meaning of the designation 'M.P.18.1' - first model?

 

No idea re serial nos, Julian, as I don't have a reference book to consult.  I presume 'M.P.18.1' does mean 'first model'.  I am going on the absence of a post-war date mark and the regimental markings on the stock, which point to a wartime issue.  Like you, I'm happy to learn something new every day and would welcome a definitive opinion from someone with specialist knowledge of the MP18. 

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On serial numbers I am just guessing, but if I remember rightly, Gew.98, etc., were serialled in blocks of 9,999, the first lot with no preceding letter, the second with an 'A', the third with a 'B', etc. so if this is a 'C', and it uses the same system, then it is number 871 in the 4th lot of 9,999's. which makes it - whatever!  

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That is certainly a lot of weapons ... but I don't think the regimental markings would have been applied to this one until after it had been issued.  Then again, I've just done a bit of googling and have found references to 50,000 being ordered and only about 10,000 being delivered by November 1918. 

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Hmmm... And Google.de has: "Bis zum Kriegsende produzierte die Theodor Bergmann Waffenbau etwa 35.000[1] Exemplare dieser Waffe", referring to: Hans Dieter Götz: German Military Rifles and Machine Pistols, 1871–1945, Schiffer Publishing, Ltd. West Chester, Pennsylvania, 1990...

 

So, seems like that letter aint what I thought it was - or perhaps they only went up in 900 blocks???!!!

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ID: 19   Posted (edited)

Here's an interesting variant... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hQBIoAf3B5M

 

PS: and something by TonyE - http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?/topic/161818-mp-18-1-serial-numbers/

 

Edited by trajan
Add PS

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On ‎4‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 09:09, trajan said:

 

Not had a chance to look into those markings yet...

 

 

That'll teach me to do things late at night just before bed!

 

This one was originally a 71/84 (and probably a 71/84a.A and probably made 1887 or 1888 when Luneschloss were most active making these). It was then convereted/refurbished 1908-1909 by having the muzzle ring removed and being rehilted to make it fixable to the Gew and Kar 98 standard, so becoming a S.84/98 a.A., NOT a 71/84 n,A....

 

I only have 10 regimentally-marked Luneschloss-made 71/84 on record, two later converted to 84/98 a.A standard, and all of these are marked for one or other Prussian unit.  

Hi Trajan.

I just acquired a M84/98aA made by P D Luneschloss Solingen.Made in 88.

Bayonet is marked  6 RR 28  and the scabbard  67 R.E.4.238.

Because a lot of these were rehilted etc the bayonets and scabbards are often mismatched.

Nice one for the collection.

 

Alan

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Thanks Alan! All grist to the mill!

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Have a couple of good MP 18 stories, if a bit OT. (My specialty) but I am half asleep. Anyone actually know of them being issued to combat units in the war?

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