Remembered Today:

nils d

19 squadron w/op

10 posts in this topic

Looking at the index in " That's my bloody plane " theres a casualty the doesn't make sense.

5/7/17 wounded MZ22290  wireless operator P Werden

Now at the time 19 Sqn were flying single seat SPADs so would have no earthly reason to employ a w/op How was he wounded?

That service number isn't a RFC one so whats going on here?

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5 hours ago, nils d said:

Looking at the index in " That's my bloody plane " theres a casualty the doesn't make sense.

5/7/17 wounded MZ22290  wireless operator P Werden

Now at the time 19 Sqn were flying single seat SPADs so would have no earthly reason to employ a w/op How was he wounded?

That service number isn't a RFC one so whats going on here?

Hi

It may be related to the ground communication system connected with the Aeroplane Compass Stations, two with each Army which also had one Aeroplane Interception Station (this had been improved from May 1917 from the 1916 system).  This picked up messages from enemy artillery aeroplanes and then informed Scout squadrons of their presence so they could intercept.  This was done by ground signals to Scouts in the air or by telephone or wireless signals back to the airfields.  Wireless was increasingly used for ground communications as the war progressed.  The later 'Central Information Bureau' was added in 1918 to improve the system for other tasks.  The Germans used a similar system.

 

Mike

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His Medal Index Card might give more info as to unit. Looks like ASC but doesn't seem to be duties of such a unit. More like RE .

Interesting item, please share if you find more info. The name seems a bit unusual so might find some info.

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Only Werden appears to be RAMC, but still looking!

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P Werden 5th Middx, died Chatham Milt Hospital Oct 1918, definitely not a number match though.

 

Could be a M2 or MS ASC prefix (?) misread, but no obvious match.

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I wonder is there is a spelling error on the name? Could be WARDEN, WORDEN, ...DAN or DON. I have no access tot he MICs so can't check but hopefully others will want to solve the mystery & can go through the cards & see what turns up.

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Another possibility from the RAF Muster Roll (April 1918):  135805  P. Werren.  No enlistment date listed.  No listing for P. Warden or P. Worden.

His service record is AIR 79/1218/135805  William Percy Werren.

I did not find a MIC for him, but the RAF has not released MICs for airmen who served only with them.

 

Josquin

 

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On ‎18‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 18:34, MikeMeech said:

Hi

It may be related to the ground communication system connected with the Aeroplane Compass Stations, two with each Army which also had one Aeroplane Interception Station (this had been improved from May 1917 from the 1916 system).  This picked up messages from enemy artillery aeroplanes and then informed Scout squadrons of their presence so they could intercept.  This was done by ground signals to Scouts in the air or by telephone or wireless signals back to the airfields.  Wireless was increasingly used for ground communications as the war progressed.  The later 'Central Information Bureau' was added in 1918 to improve the system for other tasks.  The Germans used a similar system.

 

Mike

 

 

Sounds reasonable to me but such a bod wouldn't be in a squadron , he'd be in a Wing? Communication to a squadron would be by telephone.

Do we know if No 19 did this work? lve only heard of Nieuports doing "compass calls" in 1917.

Joquin _  What was that mans trade on the RAF Muster roll ?

is the MZ number in error? No one has that as an Army number l take it.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to ponder this minor mystery .

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31 minutes ago, nils d said:

 

 

Sounds reasonable to me but such a bod wouldn't be in a squadron , he'd be in a Wing? Communication to a squadron would be by telephone.

Do we know if No 19 did this work? lve only heard of Nieuports doing "compass calls" in 1917.

Joquin _  What was that mans trade on the RAF Muster roll ?

is the MZ number in error? No one has that as an Army number l take it.

Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to ponder this minor mystery .

Hi

Judging from entries in 'Fighter Squadron' by Derek Palmer (which are based on the contents of 19 Sqn's  'SRB') the squadron was involved in this system during 1917.  There are several mentions of a 'message received' on various dates, for example for the 28th September 1917:

"A message was received at 10.05am that enemy aircraft were working the area.  Captain Leacroft attacked one which went spinning slowly down but probably under control, just east of Zanvoorde.  The other enemy went east.

   Another message at 11.04am sent the Spads to 6,000 feet and eight enemy aircraft scouts were seen and later two 2 seaters near Gheluewe.  These were attacked but they immediately dived east into cloud......On returning to the aerodrome he saw the arrow had been put on the ground and preceded in that direction.....

   At 12.17pm a message was received of enemy aircraft working the area....."

 

The mention of the 'Arrow', which was part of the system so aircraft in the air could be signalled is of interest.

 

The system was not only in use for intercepting enemy aircraft as on 25th September 1917:

"That afternoon at 4.08pm a message was received that the enemy troops were massing for an attack on the 10th Corps Front.  Lieutenant Powers after studying the position on the map carefully for a minute or two, jumped into his machine which had been got ready for him and left the ground a few minutes after the message had been received.  His orders were to fly low over the enemy ground in question and bring back information on their movements. 

   Lieutenant Powers (B3520) - is missing."

 

Presumably the original information on enemy troop movements came from a balloon or a Corps aeroplane (which could not investigate further) then passed to 19 Sqn. through the communication chain.

 

Mike

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10 minutes ago, MikeMeech said:

Hi

Judging from entries in 'Fighter Squadron' by Derek Palmer (which are based on the contents of 19 Sqn's  'SRB') the squadron was involved in this system during 1917.  There are several mentions of a 'message received' on various dates, for example for the 28th September 1917:

"A message was received at 10.05am that enemy aircraft were working the area.  Captain Leacroft attacked one which went spinning slowly down but probably under control, just east of Zanvoorde.  The other enemy went east.

   Another message at 11.04am sent the Spads to 6,000 feet and eight enemy aircraft scouts were seen and later two 2 seaters near Gheluewe.  These were attacked but they immediately dived east into cloud......On returning to the aerodrome he saw the arrow had been put on the ground and preceded in that direction.....

   At 12.17pm a message was received of enemy aircraft working the area....."

 

The mention of the 'Arrow', which was part of the system so aircraft in the air could be signalled is of interest.

 

The system was not only in use for intercepting enemy aircraft as on 25th September 1917:

"That afternoon at 4.08pm a message was received that the enemy troops were massing for an attack on the 10th Corps Front.  Lieutenant Powers after studying the position on the map carefully for a minute or two, jumped into his machine which had been got ready for him and left the ground a few minutes after the message had been received.  His orders were to fly low over the enemy ground in question and bring back information on their movements. 

   Lieutenant Powers (B3520) - is missing."

 

Presumably the original information on enemy troop movements came from a balloon or a Corps aeroplane (which could not investigate further) then passed to 19 Sqn. through the communication chain.

 

Mike

Hi

Attached are drawings of the 'Arrow' system as put in place at S.8.b.25, one mile south-west of Nieuport to signal to machines on patrol.  It was in operation from the 7th August 1917 (TNA AIR1/1577/404/80/98).

Why was there a W/op on the squadron, I don't know, it could be they were at an advanced landing ground with no telephone? Or the telephone system wasn't usable at the time?  I can only speculate on the information that we have.

 

Mike

WW1RFCgrdsigad002.jpg.20668ca46e30ef5b1508b89add1116ff.jpg

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