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ph0ebus

"New" German Artillery Piece Found...Need Help With ID

54 posts in this topic

Hi all,

 

I came across another piece of German artillery in the course of my travels, which I believe is not listed in the Passion and Compassion artillery database.  A photo of the gun, pre-restoration, from the article below:

 

German-WWI-Cannon-052713-09_Glowatzw-700

 

In doing some preliminary research I found an article about it:

 

http://tbrnewsmedia.com/veterans-repair-german-cannon-from-world-war-i/

 

It stands perhaps three feet high.  Can someone clue me in on what kind of gun this is?  I took a bunch of photos which I hope to upload from my phone and post this evening.  If it is in fact not in the database I will alert the database owner promptly.

 

Thanks,

 

Daniel

 

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No idea as to what it is but I read the link and enjoyed the part reading: "It is likely that an American soldier took the cannon home with him, a common practice at the time"... Must have had a big kitbag...!!! :D

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It's a remnant 10cm lFH 98/09 - the whole recoil/recuperator assembly is missing. It's supposed to look like (attached).

 

Regards,

 

Charlie

 

1024px-Sayabec-canon.JPG

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11 minutes ago, CharlieBris said:

It's a remnant 10cm lFH 98/09 ...

 

And yet another German military designation where the 'I' in IFH is not actually an 'I' but an 'L' ... standing for leichte Feldhaubitze (or in English, light Field Howitzer)

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So, "light" enough for our anonymous "American soldier" to take home with him???!!! :D

 

Anyway, my understanding is that the calibre is 10.5 not 10... There is an example in Canada - see e.g.: http://silverhawkauthor.com/artillery-preserved-in-canada-4a-manitoba_379.html 

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The official calibre was 10cm, the actual calibre was, as you pointed out, 105mm.

 

In the same way the 13cm Kanone M09 had an actual calibre of 135mm.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie

 

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Probably useful to point out that calibre designations, from small arms up to artillery, are nominal and rarely exact.

 

In any case it depends how you choose to measure: land to land ? groove to groove ? groove to land ?

 

There are conventions, but these aren't universally adhered to.

 

 

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Shame the returning US soldier didn't have room in his kitbag for the whole thing!  If the current custodians happen to have the missing bits, it could be a good candidate for restoration.

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49 minutes ago, CharlieBris said:

The official calibre was 10cm, the actual calibre was, as you pointed out, 105mm.

 

39 minutes ago, Stoppage Drill said:

Probably useful to point out that calibre designations, from small arms up to artillery, are nominal and rarely exact.

 

Thanks both for adding that information, but as I understand it from German sources the official designation / description of this piece was 105 mm and so best rendered in English as 10.5!

 

38 minutes ago, SiegeGunner said:

Shame the returning US soldier didn't have room in his kitbag for the whole thing!  If the current custodians happen to have the missing bits, it could be a good candidate for restoration.

 

;)

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10 minutes ago, trajan said:

 

 

Thanks both for adding that information, but as I understand it from German sources the official designation / description of this piece was 105 mm and so best rendered in English as 10.5!

 

Wrong way round, surely, Julian.  German convention is calibres in centimetres and English (when metric) in mm.

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48 minutes ago, SiegeGunner said:

 

Wrong way round, surely, Julian.  German convention is calibres in centimetres and English (when metric) in mm.

 

You are of course quite correct :doh: - must slap my wrists and try much harder not to do things on GWF when students and classes are a-waiting... 

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ID: 12   Posted (edited)

There is not much left of it -

perhaps the serial number and date is present.

like in my example.

 

serial no.jpg

Edited by Martin Feledziak

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3 hours ago, trajan said:

 

You are of course quite correct :doh: - must slap my wrists and try much harder not to do things on GWF when students and classes are a-waiting... 

 

... and the German and European convention is to denote decimals with a comma, as in 10,5 cm. I had to learn this in a drawing office dealing with mixed Imperial/Metric componentry in the late 1970s... :D

 

 

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9 hours ago, trajan said:

No idea as to what it is but I read the link and enjoyed the part reading: "It is likely that an American soldier took the cannon home with him, a common practice at the time"... Must have had a big kitbag...!!! :D

 

That part gave me a good laugh as well!

 

Customs agent: "Anything to declare?"

Soldier: (shuffles feet with gigantic bag slung over shoulder) ".....No?"

 

I will post a good number of photos shortly.  Well spotted, identifying the gun without many of the bits.  That's probably what was giving me a hard time.

 

-Daniel

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Image may contain: grass, tree, outdoor and nature

 

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Image may contain: outdoor

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I just emailed the owner of the Passion Compassion website to let him know about this find and asked him to visit this thread for details.

 

-Daniel

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With the Spanish inscriptions on the adjusting wheels, I wonder if it actually came from Mexico rather than the Western Front. 

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That's very interesting...All quiet on the southern front? :)

 

Why would a German gun have come through Mexico?

 

Daniel

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Would the gun still be usable in this incomplete condition?  I am wondering if it might have been stripped down to use as an Infanterie-Geschütz-Batterien weapon as part of "Stoßtrupp" close quarter combat tactics.  I think these were usually 75mm pieces, but I have a vague recollection of Bob Lembke mentioning 105mm howitzers were also occasionally used in this direct fire role.

Mark

 

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46 minutes ago, ph0ebus said:

Why would a German gun have come through Mexico?

 

 

Why would it have Spanish writing on it if it was for use by the German Army? It has a manufacturers plate bur does it have a model number or a serial number which might shed more light?

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33 minutes ago, johnboy said:

 

Why would it have Spanish writing on it if it was for use by the German Army? It has a manufacturers plate bur does it have a model number or a serial number which might shed more light?

On the carriage (?) is stamped the number 12706.  On the breech block (?) is stamped Friedr. Krupp Essen 1898.  Below that is something else that was stamped that I believe read Nr. 20.

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The history of this particular piece clearly got lost (and somewhat confused) over the years; in digging a little deeper into online resources I understand that Krupp sold a lot of pieces to the Mexican army in the late 19th and early 20th centuries.  Maybe this piece rather from WWI actually comes from the Indian Wars era? 

 

Or, a question I had was did the German army ever buy back artillery they had sold to other nations during the Great War?  Maybe this gun initially went to Mexico but then somehow made its way back to the German army, only to be captured later?

 

-Daniel

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I am wondering why the carriage or trail on Daniel's gun appears to be so much shorter and narrower than other examples of this type found online.? The serial number (for the carriage at least) seems to be 18 ... with Nr.18 appearing on the placard as well as being stamped into the 'chassis' components. These are just curious observations - happy to be educated by somebody who knows these things. :)

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I'm starting to think this is quite a rare gun. The WW1 10cm lFH 98/09 was a reworked version of the 10cm Model 1898 howitzer which did

not have recoil absorption. I think this gun may be a Model 1898 supplied to South America. Krupp sold artillery pieces to many

countries in South America so it isn't really possible to say which country without more evidence. Some of the South American countries had

fancy ciphers cast into the barrel but this gun doesn't seem to have a cipher.

 

The German Army always referred to their artillery pieces by their nominal calibre in WW1, the practice changed between the wars to use the actual

calibre. The exception to this was for light artillery pieces with calibres <10cm - they were referred to by their actual calibre, e.g. 7,5cm, 7,7cm.

 

Regards,

 

Charlie

 

 

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