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Anzac16

German feldgrau kratzchen Lubeck regiment (IR 162)

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I got this German feldgrau kratzchen from the Lubeck regiment (IR 162) some weeks ago but i wanted to share it with you guy's.

Lubeck.jpg

kratzchenbinnen6bg.jpg

kratzchencocardes7tl.jpg

Well i am very happy with it

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I bet you are, you lucky sausage!

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Very, very nice example.....it's getting tougher to find these caps in this kind of condition, and in my experience finding any with cockades other than Prussian is also quite difficult.

Cheers

Paul.

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A very nice piece - especially so with the less commonly seen cockades of one of the old Hanseatic League states. Got any pics showing the whole cap?

ciao,

GAC

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A very nice piece - especially so with the less commonly seen cockades of one of the old Hanseatic League states. Got any pics showing the whole cap?

ciao,

GAC

Yes indeed a fine sample.

But sorry, in my opinion if it is from I.R. 162 it must have the Prussian cockade black and white!

So it seems it is an Feldmütze of the Landwehr with the iron cross in the lower cockade?

Regards

Fritz

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Hi Fritz,

My understanding is that the Lubeck cross kokarden was only worn in conjunction with the Prussian State kokarden of black and white prior to 1897. From 1897 the Lubeck kokarden was worn with the Reichskokarde of red white and black, as correctly shown on Anzac16's example. The following information on Hanseatic kokarden, though primarily relating to the pickelhaube, may also be of interest:

The kokarden of the three Hanseatic City-states initially utilised the same emblem and colours on their respective kokarden between 1867 and 1897: An eight pointed red Maltese Cross was surrounded by a field of white on a serrated one piece kokarde which was also ribbed. The shape of the Maltese Cross was not merely painted on but was impressed into the kokarde. Any 'Hanseatic' kokarden encountered without the impression of the Cross are just someone's fancy paint job!

The Hanseatic kokarden was of one piece construction for all ranks; however they did vary in size, the officer's being about one third larger than the enlisted pattern. Examples of two-piece officer's kokarden are believed to have been manufactured. These apparently consisted of the ribbed serrated kokarde with a seperate Maltese Cross superimposed and attached by four prongs.

After 1897 Hamburg changed the central emblem of their kokarde from a Maltese Cross to plain Iron Cross emblem. The red and white colours remained the same.

Also in 1897 Bremen opted for a simple kokarde of white-red-white.

Only Lubeck, therefore, maintained the original pattern of kokarde after 1897 - the red Maltese Cross on white background which can be seen on Anzac16's example. On officer's pickelhauben of the Hanseatic States the one piece Landes-Kokarde (red Maltese Cross) was worn in conjunction with the two piece Reichs-Kokarde (black, white and red).

One final point to remember on the Hanseatic States as far as pickelhauben are concerned is that the sole outwardly visible identification of a Hanseatic State pickelhaube is the kokarde. This fact explains the high cost of a Hanseatic kokarde which in unscrupulous hands can turn a Prussian pickelhaube into a more expensive Hanseatic one at a stroke!

source: J. A. Bowman The Pickelhaube, volume I Line Infantry, Imperial Publications, 1989.

ciao,

GAC

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Hi,

to my understanding this a Hamburg cockade, I.R. 76;

and why would Lübeck change for the Hamburg style of cockade

Lubeck IR 162 : red iron cross in red circle

Regards,

Cnock

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Hi,

PIc of soldier IR 76 in 1917.

Some 40 years ago I found on the floor of a loft some 300 cockades for Krätchen.

Half of it were caked with rust, but the other half was in excellent condition.

Many were national cockades, but also for Prussian soldiers and officers, further Saxony, Wuerttemberg and some Hamburg cockades in mint condition.

Regards,

Cnock

post-7723-1206562523.jpg

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hansa_cock.jpg

Lübeck, Bremen, Hamburg Officer cockades

These cockades are from pickelhaube. A sad thing is that Bowman is a notoriously poor source. Sad because he had such a wide readership.

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After 1897 Hamburg changed the central emblem of their kokarde from a Maltese Cross to plain Iron Cross emblem. The red and white colours remained the same.

Also in 1897 Bremen opted for a simple kokarde of white-red-white.

Only Lubeck, therefore, maintained the original pattern of kokarde after 1897 - the red Maltese Cross on white background which can be seen on Anzac16's example.

source: J. A. Bowman The Pickelhaube, volume I Line Infantry, Imperial Publications, 1989.

A sad thing is that Bowman is a notoriously poor source. Sad because he had such a wide readership.

But your three excellent illustrations below confirm the correctness of Bowman's information on the appearance of the post-1897 kokarden for the Hanseatic States of Lubeck, Bremen and Hamburg! Your pickelhaube example for Lubeck matches that on Anzac16's kratzchen:

hansa_cock.jpg

Lübeck, Bremen, Hamburg Officer cockades

These cockades are from pickelhaube.

ciao,

GAC

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Soldiers cockades

Cnock

post-7723-1206608692.jpg

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As You will have noticed, there is a slight difference between officers' cockades and men.

Cnock

post-7723-1206609225.jpg

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as quoted : ...if a Hanseatic Kokarde can turn a Prussian Pickelhaube into a more expensive Hanseatic one...

this also goes for a Krätchen.

Regards,

Cnock

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as quoted : ...if a Hanseatic Kokarde can turn a Prussian Pickelhaube into a more expensive Hanseatic one...

this also goes for a Krätchen.

Regards,

Cnock

That's certainly a valid enough point, Cnock, though I'd have no basis for applying it to Anzac16's specific example.

ciao,

GAC

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Hello GAC,

Depends on what numbers and letters are left readable inside the cap.

Regards,

Cnock

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I agree! There's no substitute for actually handling an item to look for various indicators of authenticity and to get a feel for whether it's 'right'.

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On a pickelhaube big differences between private purchase and issue helmets. issued helmets can have depot marks but private purchase ones for officers and one-year volunteers etc. do not. You always have to be cautious when dealing with a Hanseatic pickelhaube. :unsure:

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