87 replies to this topic

[MichaelBully]

I know virtually nothing about the Gallipoli campaign. However, have started looking at  the life of  Ltn. George Leonard Cheesman, Royal Hampshire Regiment,  who died on 10th August 1915 at  Suvla Bay : Mainly through the local connection , as he is recognised on the Hove Roll of Honour. Also he was an associate of the poet James Elroy Flecker.

http://www.cwgc.org/... GEORGE LEONARD


<LI>George Leonard Cheesman (1884-1915). Winchester. Winchester Scholar 1903; Classical mods 1st 1905; Lit. Hum. 1st 1907. BSA 1908/09. Fellow of New College (1908). - from  Professor David Gill's blog http://bsahistory.bl...arch?q=cheesman

His book 'Auxilia of the Roman Imperial Army' is now available to read on the WWW.
http://archive.org/s...age/n0/mode/2up

If anyone has researched or is interested in  his life, I would welcome contact.  Regards, Michael Bully

[Moriaty]

I did a little research on GL Cheesman before I went to Gallipoli a few years ago.  I have not seen them, but The Bodleian Library in Oxford has a diary and some letters in their special collections, incidentally, their catalogue gives his date of birth, incorrectly, as 1894. He was 30 when he was killed in 1915.

His memorial service at New College in the autumn of 1915 was jointly held with one for Lieutenant George Heath, 6th Bn Queen's Own (Royal West Kent) who was also a fellow of New College. Heath was killed at Loos in early October 1915.

On the web I came across a building company called Cheesman in Brighton and wondered if there was a connection. GL Cheesman's father was a solicitor according to the 1891 census.

Moriaty

[michaeldr]

This from the WD

0430 10 Aug 1915: Turks attacked against 'A' & 'D' Coys who were reinforced by parties from 'C' & 'B' Coys & Wilts Regt. Total force about 80
0900 10 Aug 1915: Retirement of line to 80 D 6 under pressure of attack which had interposed between us & troops on our right
1000 10 Aug 1915: Rallied at 80 D 6 and took up position on crest of GREEN HILL. Bn under command of Capt. G. E. Hellyer. Only other officer remaining Lt & QRMR. W. J. Saunders.

[NA Catalogue Reference:WO/95/4296]

EDIT: re Saunders see post #6 here http://1914-1918.inv...1

Edited by michaeldr, 19 April 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[MichaelBully]

Thank you for the information Moriarty. The Hove Roll of Honour archive form, completed by his mother, gives his date of birth as 14th September 1884.
I am currently reading 'Roses and Rain- a biography of James Elroy Flecker' by Heather Walker, in which there are references to Cheesman's friendship with Flecker and  a little  about his background. I picked up on the Hove connection which got me wanting to know more.
I have no idea whether 'Cheesmans' company are related.
Regards, Michael Bully

[MichaelBully]

....And thank you Michael as well for all the information regarding 10th August 1915. Appreciated. I will have to read up more on Gallipoli and 10th August 1915, as I said, it's not a campaign that I have studied, so will need to place the information into a broader framework as it were.
Regards, Michael Bully

[michaeldr]

The ref in the WD to GREEN HILL should be treated with care as it seems that the battalion was some way south of the hill at Suvla of the same name!

This from the OH Vol.II, p.304/5
quote: "North of Rhododendron Spur there was greater confusion still, for there even the unity of battalions had been broken up, and infantry companies of various units were very intermixed. In the immediate neighbourhood of the Farm, also under the divisional command of General Shaw, the British line was commanded by Br-Gen A H Baldwin (38th Brigade). It seems to have been held from right to left by two companies of the 10/Hampshire (29th Brigade), 1½ companies of the Wiltshire (40th Brigade), the 6/Royal Irish Rifles (29th Brigade), and 1½ companies of the 9/R. Warwickshire (39th Brigade). Br-Gen Baldwin's headquarters was on the western edge of the Farm plateau, and here, too, assisting Baldwin, were Br-General R J Cooper and the staff of the 29th Brigade. In support, on the opposite (left) side of the Aghyl Dere, were the 6/East Lancashire of Baldwin's own brigade and the other two companies of the 10/Hampshire.”

[michaeldr]

MichaelBully, on 19 April 2012 - 04:38 PM, said:

who died on 10th August 1915 at Suvla Bay

I think that 'ANZAC' would be more accurate than Suvla Bay

[michaeldr]

Going back a day in the WD to the 9th Aug 1915, together with the map from the OH, may help to place the battalion at this time

0400 9 Aug 1915: Reached about 80 D 6 on AGHYL DERE deployed in support of
0530 9 Aug 1915: firing line formed of Colonial & Indian troops and occupied ridge forming underfeature of N. W. side of CHUNUK BAIR.
0800 9 Aug 1915: A & D Coys & 2 M. Guns moved to 80 F 7 from which position they attacked pt. 240. This attack reached a line 300 + W of pt. 240 in touch with troops on neither side Right or Left. 'C' and 'D' Coys did not advance.
0900 9 Aug 1915: 'A' & 'D' Coys same position entrenching. 'B' & 'C' same positions. This entrenching took place in broad daylight under heavy shrapnel & rifle fire, latter at 300-600 yds. Heaviest casualties at this point.

[seaJane]

Michael,

I am a James Elroy Flecker collector and have the other biographies of him; also a couple of editions of his letters. Next time I'm at home I'll check through them for any mention of Cheesman. The Heather Walker biography is quite new to me.

Jane

[MichaelBully]

Sure you are right Michael. To be honest, I haven't a clue where all these places are ! Checking my notes from the information that Cheesman's mother supplied to the Hove Library Roll of Honour archive, he died at 'Chunuk Bair'.
It looks like 'Suvla Bay' appears elsewhere.
Michael Bully

michaeldr, on 19 April 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I think that 'ANZAC' would be more accurate than Suvla Bay

[MichaelBully]

Hello Jane, interested to hear that you are a James Elroy Felcker collector. I got talking to Heather Walker at a Wilfred Owen Association /Siegfried Sassoon Fellowship event , and decided to send off for her book. Had not heard of Flecker before. I will E mail you later.  Best wishes, Michael

seaJane, on 19 April 2012 - 08:04 PM, said:

Michael,

I am a James Elroy Flecker collector and have the other biographies of him; also a couple of editions of his letters. Next time I'm at home I'll check through them for any mention of Cheesman. The Heather Walker biography is quite new to me.

Jane

[seaJane]

Others should be aware that despite the date of his death (1915) Flecker was not a Great War casualty...

Michael, it looks as if Heather Walker's biography is a small-press publication: are you still in touch with her? That may be the easiest way for me to get a copy...

(sea)Jane

[MichaelBully]

Good point Jane !  That's why I agreed to E mail you about Flecker outside of the GWF.
I am quite happy to post my comments about Heather Walker's biography  of Flecker  in a separate thread  in Skindles  once I have read it.

The thread is  essentially about George Cheesman :Again can I thank everyone who has posted for all the information that they have supplied.
Regards, Michael Bully

seaJane, on 19 April 2012 - 10:34 PM, said:

Others should be aware that despite the date of his death (1915) Flecker was not a Great War casualty...

Michael, it looks as if Heather Walker's biography is a small-press publication: are you still in touch with her? That may be the easiest way for me to get a copy...

(sea)Jane

[seaJane]

Thanks Michael. I haven't picked up my e-mail at home since I was on the forum last night so will look for it later.

I looked up Cheesman in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and, while there are Cheesmans listed, can't find any connection with your man from the available details.

Moriaty, one of the Cheesmans listed in Who's Who is the son of an architect (links to your building company?) but I haven't been able to find a link to George Leonard from any of them.

[michaeldr]

Michael,

this is a much better map and from it you can follow the movements of the battalion
6th Aug 1915: Landed Anzac Cove then to dug outs in Bridges Road,  s. side of Shrapnel Gully
7th: forward north of Russell's Top then ordered back to Shrapnel Gully
8th: marched along coast to Fisherman's Hut. In evening crossed Chailak Dere
9th: early morning found track into Aghyl Dere. Moved forward (towards The Farm)



The positions mentioned in the WD
80 F 7 is just to the west/left of the 'F' in The Farm
80 D 6 is a short way west and north of the The Farm, just beneath the final 'e' in Aghyl Dere

The BSA also mistakenly refer to Cheesman as landing at Suvla: see  http://bsahistory.bl...-world-war.html

[michaeldr]

This is the sort of country which the Hampshires were fighting in: the Turks had the high ground
The cemetery which you can see is The Farm



ref to map above; this picture was taken from the ridge of Rhododendron Hill
so a lot of the Hampshire's action would be just off shot to the left

[TRAJAN]

G.L.Cheesman is a particular hero of mine in another respect for as noted in the OP, he wrote the seminal work in English on the Auxiliary 'regiments' of the Roman army (originally published in 1914), which is my particular area of academic expertise. His book features in the bibliography of each of some 12 or so papers I have published in International journals on the subject, and it remains the fundamental reference work for all scholars in this particular field. His was one just one of the many great minds that was brought to an early end in WWI. Although I was aware he died early in WWI, I never knew when or where that happened, and I am grateful to GWF members for providing this information. I am not a great one for sentimentality, but it is nice to know those details - and at the same time, of course to wonder what this great classicist must have thought fighting in an area that also features so often in the history of the classical world (think of all those, including Alexander, who crossed over at the Hellespont).

G.L.C., you are remembered always

Trajan

[MichaelBully]

Oh my goodness! I So appreciate all the information about George Cheesman that people have posted.  Will take me a while to go throught it all, but thank you all for being so generous with your time and expertise. Regards , Michael Bully

[maricourt]

Michael and Trajan



Trajan asked what Cheesman felt about fighting the war in the Dardanelles.  On the way out to Gallipoli he wrote to many of his friends that he felt he was fighting on historical ground to win back the Roman capital from the Turks!  However, his last letter to Professor Gilbert Murray was in defence of the Turks.  Interesting man.



Maricourt

[MichaelBully]

Going through the points raised in different posts:

I think I first heard of Cheesman's place of death being 'Suvla Bay' from his entry on the Hove Roll of Honour website

http://www.roll-of-h...x/Hove-C-G.html   and the aforementioned British School at Athens blog.

It was only when I consulted the file in the Hove Roll of Honour archive at Hove Library, I saw that his mother had stated 'Chunuk Bair' , which must be correct. The family donated a photography of Cheesman to the archive.

I have tried searching for local paper records of George Cheesman's death and obituaries. So far have been unsuccessful.

Going back to Heather Walker's biography of James Elroy Flecker, it seems that there is an unpublished biography of George Cheesman, written by one Patrick Campbell : The younger brother of a New College  student Maurice Flecker. Heather's book does have a photograph of George Cheesman with a young Patrick Campbell. I understand that the biography is in the archives of New College.

Trajan - Indeed. The connection between men who fought in the Great War who had studied the Classics  and how they viewed warfare, and how they would view going to a region such as Gallipoli, probably deserves is own thread.  

Regards, Michael Bully

Edit- have also found this link about George Cheesman's papers http://www.bodley.ox...n/cheesman.html

[TRAJAN]

Mariecourt and Michael (also Moriaty earlier),

Thanks for that information re: GLC! Having been fascinated by and having made great use of his book since the 1980's, I have always wanted to know more about him. The really weird thing, in a sense, is that althoughI live in Turkey, I have never yet managed a trip to the Cannakale battlefields, but was planning to do so sometime this year. I am now so glad that I have left it so late as now I can go there with a specific search in mind, the area where GLC was involved in.

Michael, surprising news that you have not had much luck searching for reports of GLC's death and/or obituaries. IIRC, the introduction of my (republished) edition of his book has an obituary I'll check and scan if you would like this.

Trajan

[MichaelBully]

Hello Trajan

I would welcome an obituary. Will try again to go through local newspapers but Local History Centre is closed for repairs for a few days. I wonder if there was a time delay in relaying the information of Cheesman's death to Britian so reports of death any obituary might have appeared a couple of weeks afterwards.

Mariecourt - interesting to hear about the correspondence between Cheesman and Gilbert Murray , thanks,- is this published ?

Regards

Michael Bully

TRAJAN, on 22 April 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Mariecourt and Michael (also Moriaty earlier),

Thanks for that information re: GLC! Having been fascinated by and having made great use of his book since the 1980's, I have always wanted to know more about him. The really weird thing, in a sense, is that althoughI live in Turkey, I have never yet managed a trip to the Cannakale battlefields, but was planning to do so sometime this year. I am now so glad that I have left it so late as now I can go there with a specific search in mind, the area where GLC was involved in.

Michael, surprising news that you have not had much luck searching for reports of GLC's death and/or obituaries. IIRC, the introduction of my (republished) edition of his book has an obituary I'll check and scan if you would like this.

Trajan

[TRAJAN]

MichaelBully, on 23 April 2012 - 01:26 PM, said:

... I would welcome an obituary...

I'm back at home now but I will try to remember to take GLC Auxilia back with me tomorrow so that I can scan it for you. IIRC the Introduction was not so much a full obituary but more a summary of his academic achievements. I think you mentioned that his family donated a photograph of GLC to the Hove archive? I would love to see a copy if one is available.

Trajan

[maricourt]

Hello Michael & Trajan

The reference to Cheesman's letters comes from Reginald Pound's book "The Lost Generation", Chapter 11 - "A Professor's Proud Remembrance".  [Professor Gilbert Murray].  An obit of GLC and a photograph can be found in "Wykemists who Died in the Great War".  A G Heath and AD Gillespie both mention Cheesman in their letters [both of these men were dead by the end of 1915, too].  Cheesman was also a friend of Harold Edward Pope [KIA 1918] and his brother, Hugh Rose Pope - killed in a climbing accident 1912.

I'd be very interested in a photograph and the obituary, too!

Cheesman's father lived [at some time] at 36 Medina Villas, Hove - if that is of any interest!

A very interesting thread.

Regards ... Maricourt

[TRAJAN]

I was completely wrong about where I had seen an obituary for GLC - it was in the Classical Review, 29 (Nov. 1915). 222-223, by F.Haverfield. A quick glance suggests that the one in the Journal of Roman Studies, 5 (1915), 147-148, also by Haverfield, is identical. The story is, BTW, that Haverfield, the leading British expert on Latin inscriptions, thought of GLC as his most worthy potential successor... High praise indeed...

Let me know if you would like a copy - I have a PDF of the Classical Review obit., but it is too big for the GWF attachment system...

Trajan