418 replies to this topic

[auchonvillerssomme]

As a slight aside and we have mentioned tolerances so I presume its ok, this is a French control for the L'epee-baionnette modele 1878. Does anyone have a picture of the British equivelant?

Attached Files

•  french bayo.jpg   94.1K   0 downloads

[sawdoc34]

Auchon,
thats cool man, would like to see the Brit equivelant also. Maybe the fact that my Brit bayonets dont fit the Indian EY No1 Mk3* SMLE is that they had different tolerances but not sure on that either as the Indians used all P1907s from different countries on their 12" blade types. Have Remmington Mk1* & wilkinson Mk1** in my collection & they fit but full length Enfield & WW2 Wilkinson dont fit?

Here`s another to discuss-

[sawdoc34]

[TRAJAN]

Quick guess... Shortened and in a Turkish scabbard? Prepared to be corrected!

Trajan

[sawdoc34]

Had these pics sent to me to discuss-

[TRAJAN]

Well, the two metal ones seem to be German Ersatz, but rather long ones! Don't have ANY of the Carter books, but aren't the T-blades on these taken from Gras bayonets? They look nice, though!

Trajan

[sawdoc34]

Trajan,
correct mate its a captured Vickers P1907 shortened by the Turkish & other 2 are ersoc bayonets but dont know much about them other than 1 looks to be made from a Brit socket bayonet.
More pics of the trio-

[TRAJAN]

Well, yes, ErSOC not Ersatz... And yes, socket blades... I can add a little more (thanks to a French web-site with drawings from Carter - http://www.patiorlan...ndex.php?page=4), The 'stripey' handle, imitating a 98/05 is as on Carter EB 49/50; the plain handle seems to be as on Carter EB 7.

Trajan

PS: This 2 PSRF on your P 1888 is still bugging me. Have gone through every combination I can think of, and I think RF has to be 'Reserve Force'. Perhaps the 'P' is Port, as you suggest, or perhaps Police? The thing is the '2' in front of it all - implies a 2nd something!

[sawdoc34]

Cheers for the info on the ersocs Trajan, the 2PSRF markings have been bugging me for months mate, bought it for the markings as thought they were obscure but never dreamt that they would be this bloody hard to decipher.

[shippingsteel]

sawdoc34, on 03 August 2011 - 09:53 AM, said:

... its a captured Vickers P1907 shortened by the Turkish

Aleck, now you're starting to sound like a dealer - it can't have been captured by the Turks as it was only made in November 1918.!!
I think you'll find it was one of a large number of P1907's and rifles that were sold to Turkey during their post-war rearmament period.
Yes they got sent to Turkey where they did "vile and despicable" things to them, like cutting them down and sticking them in strange scabbards ...

As for the others, you've got an Afghan P'88 style bayonet at the top, identified by the Afghan royal cypher stamped on the ricasso (see pic below)
The other 2 are German ersatz bayonets made up from old obsolete triangular blade socket bayonets, and probably including a British P1853 blade.
I've found some references for them in Kiesling - the plain hilt example is noted as #650 (p.261) while the grooved hilt version is described as #222 (p.259)

Cheers, S>S

 Afghan1.jpg   53.24K   0 downloads

[sawdoc34]

Wish I was a dealer mate, thewn I could afford all those lovely bayonets that have so far eluded me due to their sky high prices (carpenters dont get paid that much these days).
Cheers for correcting me on the turks heritage    must have just stuck in my head from ebay etc., by now you would think that I should know better than to take their descriptions with a pinch of salt.
Will stick its No4 counter part & frog up on here later.
Any idea of the blade that makes up the other ersoc? Looks European but not sure which country.
Cheers,
Aleck

[sawdoc34]

Quite like oddball bayonets, not really pure military spec but they have a strange attraction for me.
Saying that here are a couple more for you-

[sawdoc34]

[TRAJAN]

Re: the ersocs. A quick search of the web suggest that the 'stripey handle' one is a Carter EB 71.

Trajan

[TRAJAN]

Well, the top one of the latest two has a Canada acceptance doesn't it? Is it a shortened bayonet for use as a Trench knife? The second one also shortened for a trench knife? There again, I recall seeing years ago an Australian or Canadian bowie knife bayonet that belonged to a friend - who used it as his camping knife! Guess it's time to build up and READ the reference book collection!

Trajan

[sawdoc34]

Trajan
you are right mate it does have a canadian acceptence mark, not sure when or who did the shortening of the blade but it doesnt look recent. Does the X-bend mark look similar to another bayonet in this thread? May give you a clue to its maker.

2nd bayonet has been converted very well, the bowie tip has excellent grinding but again not sure when or where it was done. Any thoughts on the EL marking to the pommel?


Cheers,
Aleck

[shippingsteel]

Well the 2nd cutdown bayonet could have been a conversion that was done in India circa WW2.
They had a shorter pattern called the No.1 Mk.VI which looks very similar to that one, with the ground Bowie shape point.
The letters E.L. on the pommel would indicate the East Lancashire Regiment in British service, so that could well be it.
Not sure what to make of the 1st cutdown bayonet, looks like it may have been a snapped blade that somebody's had a go at.
I'm not sure what the marking on the pommel is supposed to be, but I'm pretty certain that its NOT the Canadian ownership mark.

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

Here are a couple more of the bayonets in question (1st 2 are the dodgey 1)-



Looked like it was just missing part of the top of the C

[TRAJAN]

shippingsteel, on 04 August 2011 - 07:45 AM, said:

I'm not sure what the marking on the pommel is supposed to be, but I'm pretty certain that its NOT the Canadian ownership mark.
Cheers, S>S

Do you want to say why? It would help the rest of us!

Trajan

[shippingsteel]

shippingsteel, on 04 August 2011 - 07:45 AM, said:

I'm not sure what the marking on the pommel is supposed to be, but I'm pretty certain that its NOT the Canadian ownership mark.

Well there you go - looking at the second photo of the C marking - it does look more like the proper mark, so maybe I was wrong.!
Its got a partial stamping with that piece missing, but I was more worried about the shape of the arrow which to me is slightly different.
I'm used to looking at stuff that was marked from the Ross factory during the war, perhaps this marking is from a later period ie. postwar.

There are 2 types of mark that I have seen from the war period, this  imagesCALU63UA.jpg   592bytes   0 downloads found on Ross bayonets like below.

 C^steel.jpg   5.91K   0 downloads  C^markII.jpg   5.01K   0 downloads

And the italic letter C with the pine tree shape arrow like this  imagesCACE3BEZ.jpg   596bytes   0 downloads found on timber grips and leather scabbards.

 C^timber.jpg   10.74K   0 downloads  C^leather.jpg   19.82K   0 downloads

It would be good to get some input on how the marking changed in the post-war period and even heading into WW2. May need some local knowledge on that.!

Cheers, S>S

[sawdoc34]

Whilst sorting the bayonets out for the other thread, I noticed some markings that I had forgoten about.
Thinking-
Lancaster- VRB - (something) Rifle Brigade or (something) Reserve Battalion?
"Cadet"- LRB - London Rifle Brigage or Land Reserve battalion?
Any other ideas?

[shippingsteel]

sawdoc34, on 09 August 2011 - 04:24 PM, said:

Whilst sorting the bayonets out for the other thread, I noticed some markings that I had forgoten about.

Hi Aleck, you're certainly the man with the goods for that other thread, a nice array of old blades you have there.
I think the Lancaster with VRB could indicate "Volunteer Rifle Brigade" of the London Militia/Territorial fame.
Also with the 'Cadet' the LRB should indicate "London Rifle Brigade" again obviously of the London Militia/Territorials.
If you google both of those tags you will easily come up with a lot of hits, so I think they are the most apparent answers.

Also 2 good examples of modification/conversion on show in those last photos.
The Lancaster has had the pommel ground down to allow fitment on another variety of rifle.
And the 'Cadet' has had the comb removed as well as the obvious shortening and bushing of muzzle-ring.
Both things done whilst in service to allow reuse of what otherwise would have been very obsolete materiel.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Going to put up a new photo here for a change of pace.
Anyone notice anything unusual going on here.? Oh yeah, and if you can help with the unit markings that would be a bonus.!

Cheers, S>S

 scabmark.jpg   63.95K   0 downloads

[TRAJAN]

shippingsteel, on 10 August 2011 - 09:10 PM, said:

Going to put up a new photo here for a change of pace. Anyone notice anything unusual going on here.? Oh yeah, and if you can help with the unit markings that would be a bonus.! Cheers, S>S scabmark.jpg

Welllll.... Examiner's marks on the grips are not unheard of, from what little I know of 1907 bayonets, but they are uncommon. A niggling thought at the back of my mind says it was an Australian practice? As is usual I stand ready to be corrected...!!!

But no idea as to unit markings...

Trakan

[shippingsteel]

TRAJAN, on 11 August 2011 - 08:50 AM, said:

Examiner's marks on the grips are not unheard of, from what little I know of 1907 bayonets, but they are uncommon.
A niggling thought at the back of my mind says it was an Australian practice? As is usual I stand ready to be corrected...!!!

The crowned inspection marks on the grips have all been stamped during the British manufacturing process. Not sure how common they are.?
I believe that its an indication that the grips are early and original and have not been replaced during any refurbishment, but am not totally certain.
Australia didn't mark their grips until much later in the piece during WW2, when the wood shop was moved to the Slazenger facility in '41 ie. SLAZ 42
I like the inspection markings on the grip - it just seems to add a little extra character to the piece, for mine. But that's not really the thing that's unusual.!

Cheers, S>S