murrough, on 05 July 2012 - 02:37 PM, said:
Thanks for the links, just confirms what I said about Gerald Smyth,one of his main convictions was to advocate the shooting of unarmed civilians,that and the fact that he was a police commander was probably why he was murdered, (despite your attempt to apply some retrospective revisionist sectarian blather to the event).As regards George,you are probably looking at the reports of a military inquiry which tried to determine what happened, the raid appears to have been a botch job from the start,reports/witness statements are obviously rehearsed,Jeune is the only one who may have told some of the truth at a later stage.George Smyth was in a rage and vowing revenge on all and sundry, this may have clouded his judgement and dulled his previous martial prowess, but then again they were soldiers who were trying to be police and as such were totally unsuited to the situation at the time.(Frontline trench experience does not prepare men for police work in Ireland)Poor Carolan ended up dead as well most likely shot (maybe by accident)while undergoing "questioning"
Glad to see you have a sense of humour with regards to your remarks about Martin Doyle VC MM,but quite mischievous all the same(when a person or event goes against your orthodoxy you have to cast aspersions on his motives(sure everybody who voted for Home rule/Independence were either misguided and or coerced according to your doctrine, Irish people wanted Independence/Home rule,you could'nt accept it then and you can't still accept it now,you need to get over it)
Whlie Hart's work may have some merit ,his methodolgy and use of sources have been examined by many experts in the academic world and have been found to be wanting/flawed/wrong, do a search, most of the papers are quite long and dont need to be quoted here.
With regards to Myers, his work has been scrutinised and has been found to contain some inaccuracies and personal bias.TBH he is not one to be used as an expert or informed opinion, he has his own agenda and axe to grind and his feet are planted firmly in one camp
Glad you enjoyed the links. Smyth advocated shooting civilian who refused to take their hands out of their pockets because so many good men had been murdered by those who didn't (Bernard Montgomery advocates the same in his letters) . He was murdered because the RIC and DMP were being murdered from January 1919 onwards and nothing to do with what he said, only for what he was, a Unionist. His tactics were sound and similar to this which finally let us win
'Retrospective, revisionist, sectarian blather?
You mean caring about the Irish people and not thinking that anyone deserves to be killed because of their religion, politics, cultural identity and that we should all live in peace and democracy? Irish Unionists opposed Home Rule because they feared that they would be persecuted and discriminated against in an independent Ireland. And fair play to the them Irish Nationalists since 1916 have done everything they could to prove them right. It's only in the last couple of decades that this is really changing
The only botched aspect of the Carolan raid was that on hearing the shots the troops on the cordon outside rushed in to help allowing the gunmen to escape. Captain Jeune's account in Willian Sheehans British Voices and Michael Foy in The Intelligence War are good (If you want a good laugh read Dan Breen's). The British Army actually proved pretty adaptable especially Major Percival in with his mobile columns. Carolan may have been shot in revenge or genuinely by accident, either way that's what happens to those who harbour murderers
Sorry to see you have no sense of reality in relation to Doyle, fine to want Home Rule or eventually full independence, wrong to murder anyone who doesn't or just doesn't fit in to an extremist nationalist movement's vision of what their country should be. Many people were coerced, Sir Ormonde Winter, comments that he had many Unionist friends who gave money to the IRA, otherwise they would simply have been labelled 'informers' and murdered.
When did the security forces go too far? Well, in my opinion it was wrong of them to execute 5 captured terrorists for every person the IRA killed. And wrong for them to tie prisoners to a mine and set it off.....oh wait, now that I think of it, that wasn't the British Army
I think you'd better get used to 'revisionism' (by no means a negative term) because a lot of sacred cows are going to be heading to the abbatoir in the next few years.