43 replies to this topic

[bluedog]

Pals

  My apologies if this has been answered before.

  Having spent the best part of this afternoon on Google trying to find
  out what was the standard Mauser used by Turkish Infantry during the
  Campaign with regard to Model , Calibre ,Magazine capacity etc.I now turn
  to the learned Gents on the GWF.

  Many Thanks in advance

  Peter

[shippingsteel]

Something like this I would imagine ..... my best guess - a "Turkish" Mauser ....
(Maybe an 1890, 1903 or 1908 perhaps, with any luck a proper expert will be along shortly.!!)

Cheers, S>S

 Gallipoli_turks.jpg   30.69K   1 downloads

[Gunner Bailey]

I'm not a Mauser expert but I have a Mauser that was probably captured at Gallipoli or in Mesopotamia.

It is a 1894 dated 7mm 5 shot bolt action rifle which has engraved in Arabic 'Supplied by Mauser to the Ottoman Empire'. These Mausers were only supplied in 1893 and 1894, but were used in WW1. Those supplied after 1894 were I think (don't know for sure)7.92mm. In 1927 the arsenal at Ankara coverted all the 93 and 94 rifles to 7.92 and modified the receivers. My rifle is completely original spec which is why I think it was captured and brought home. It also has what looks like a sword cut in the woodwork.

John

Attached Files

•  SSCN5941.JPG   72.95K   9 downloads

[shippingsteel]

Nothing doing so had a quick look around myself. Found this basic but useful SITE which may be of some slight assistance. Seems like the main Turk round was the 7.65 x 53, not sure which model Mauser was most predominant at Gallipoli though.
PS. The rifle in foreground of above photo appears though it could be the M1893 (going on lack of pistol grip and shape of barrel/forestock etc)

Cheers, S>S

[Gunner Bailey]

shippingsteel, on 10 September 2010 - 10:02 AM, said:

Nothing doing so had a quick look around myself. Found this basic but useful SITE which may be of some slight assistance. Seems like the main Turk round was the 7.65 x 53, not sure which model Mauser was most predominant at Gallipoli though.
PS. The rifle in foreground of above photo appears though it could be the M1893 (going on lack of pistol grip and shape of barrel/forestock etc)

Cheers, S>S

Thanks for the correction on the 7.65mm

I thought the rifle in the foreground looked shorter, more like a carbine.

John

[shippingsteel]

Gunner Bailey, on 10 September 2010 - 10:31 AM, said:

I thought the rifle in the foreground looked shorter, more like a carbine.

John

I think it is the photo quality that is deceiving, under max zoom the outline of the forestock is still there, but just looks like the background.
With all the 5 muzzles lined up in a row the rifles all appear to be of the same height. I understand what you mean though, at first glance I also thought carbine.

Cheers, S>S

[shippingsteel]

Here is another photo from Gallipoli showing the Turkish rifle, once again appears to be the M1893 version of the Mauser. (Note lack of pistol grip and no protruding magazine)

Cheers, S>S

 Gallipoli - turks.jpg   50.3K   1 downloads

[shippingsteel]

This next LINK should be the clincher. Quoting straight from the AWM website - "The Model 93 Mauser was one of the standard pattern Mauser rifles issued to the Turkish army during the First World War and the most common type used against Australian forces at Gallipoli in 1915." I guess they should know ....

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

Here's mine.
Rechambered for 7.92mm in the early 30s and with the cutoff lever machined off.

 Turk93.jpg   57.37K   4 downloads

Chris

[michaeldr]

what was the standard Mauser used by Turkish Infantry during the Campaign with regard to Model , Calibre ,...


I've a feeling that this info already lurks somewhere on the GWF, but am pleased to offer it again – from 'Handbook of the Turkish Army, 8th Provisional Edition, February 1916, Intelligence Section, Cairo' original 1916, reprinted 1996, ISBN 1-870423-66-6 (dif. no. for the USA eds.)
"It was believed in the autumn of 1914 that the Turkish Army had about 500,000 7.65 Mauser rifles (later this is also described as being the "1903 pattern and short bayonet") and perhaps 200,000 9.5mm Mausers. It also possessed Martini-Henry, Martini-Peabody rifles to the number of perhaps 500,000, but many of these were very old (370,000), dating from the war of 1877-1878. It had in addition a considerable number of Remingtons and Winchester repeating rifles, but little ammunition for them. The supply of ammunition for the Martini-Henry and Martini-Peabody rifles was not believed to be very considerable; but in spite of the prophesies of agents and the confidence of some optimists there has never been any sign of any failure of ammunition for the 7.65 Mauser. The Turks have husbanded it more of late, but always seem ready to expend enormous quantities when meeting or making an attack. On the other hand their supply of 7.65m rifles, in spite of large importation of these weapons during the autumn of 1914 and the alleged purchase of many captured rifles from Bulgaria (footnote – Reports of the number of rifles so purchased vary with agents, from 35,000 to 200,000) was apparently insufficient. New consignments did not much more than cover losses or deterioration of weapons....
The opening of direct communication between Constantinople and Central Europe has enabled the Turks to obtain large quantities of Mausers and ammunition from Germany. The new Divisions in the Ist, Vth and VIth Army areas are no doubt being armed entirely with the Mauser....…"

re Magazine capacity etc the following may be of interest
"The cartridge pouches are of leather and are carried on the waist belt one on each side; they can be slipped on and off the belt as required. The pouch consists of three pockets, opening separately, the lids of which are fastened by a strap buttoning on to a stud under the pocket. To open one of these pockets is a very simple matter, being done in a second with one hand. Each pocket holds four clips of five cartridges, so that each pouch has sixty rounds and the soldier 120 rounds on his belt. With the thirty rounds carried in the pocket under the flap of the knapsack, the soldier has 150 rounds altogether on his person."

regards
Michael

[Gunner Bailey]

Thanks Chris, so I was right about the 7.92 after all.

Here are a couple of snaps in close up of mine. First the inscription (date on left) and the beautiful early sight with Arabic distances.

John

Attached Files

•  SSCN5949.JPG   60.67K   4 downloads
•  SSCN5952.JPG   24.92K   3 downloads

[TonyE]

Not quite right, John.

The Turks had adopted the 7.65x53mm round with the Model 1890 rifles, as had Belgium. It was also used extensively by several South American nations. The Turkish Models 1893, 1903 and 1905 rifles were all in that calibre.

Are you sure your rifle is 7mm? I would have thought it was 7.65mm.

It was only after WWI that the Turks started ordering new rifles from Brno in Czechoslovakia in 7.92x57mm calibre and then progressively rebarreled their 7.65mm rifles to 7.92mm in the 1920s and 30s.

Regards
TonyE

[Gunner Bailey]

TonyE, on 11 September 2010 - 12:26 PM, said:

Not quite right, John.

The Turks had adopted the 7.65x53mm round with the Model 1890 rifles, as had Belgium. It was also used extensively by several South American nations. The Turkish Models 1893, 1903 and 1905 rifles were all in that calibre.

Are you sure your rifle is 7mm? I would have thought it was 7.65mm.

It was only after WWI that the Turks started ordering new rifles from Brno in Czechoslovakia in 7.92x57mm calibre and then progressively rebarreled their 7.65mm rifles to 7.92mm in the 1920s and 30s.

Regards
TonyE

Some time ago I did a vernier check at the muzzle and I got a sort of inconclusive 7mm + so it could well be 7.65mm. I can't check at the receiver end.

I won't argue the point with you.  

John

[4thGordons]

TonyE, on 11 September 2010 - 12:26 PM, said:

It was only after WWI that the Turks started ordering new rifles from Brno in Czechoslovakia in 7.92x57mm calibre and then progressively rebarreled their 7.65mm rifles to 7.92mm in the 1920s and 30s.
Regards
TonyE

And creating "enfauser" hybrids!

I also have a Trukish marked GEW 88 and GEW 98. (in 7.92mm) I have never been able to establish if these were supplied during the war, or were post-war purchases by Turkey.
I have the safe open and camera out so I'll try and post pics later.
I have looked for a Turkish Mauser in original 7.65mm for a long time - and have never seen one apart from John's they are indeed quite scarce, unlike 7.92mm variants which abound and are cheap.
Chris

[coppertales]

The 1893/4 rifles were small ring receivers where anything made after 1898 were large ring receivers.  I am not sure any of the small ring rifles were converted to 8mm in the 30's.  I have two 1903 rifles that were converted to 8mm in the 30's.  I have not been lucky enough to come across a small ring Turk Mauser in either caliber....chris3

[4thGordons]

coppertales, on 11 September 2010 - 03:54 PM, said:

I am not sure any of the small ring rifles were converted to 8mm in the 30's.  

Isn't mine (shown above) one?

Here, for comparison are two Turkish marked German Rifles (GEW88 and GEW98 both 7.92mm) and a Turkish Mauser in 7.92mm dated 1941.

 Gew88.jpg   19.92K   5 downloads
 Gew88ring.jpg   26.18K   3 downloads
Turkish marked action: Rifle still contains all its German unit marks and is modified for the S-patronen

 Gew98web.jpg   19.9K   4 downloads
1918 produced German Gew 98 with a Turkish stamp

 turk8mm.jpg   22.05K   2 downloads
Turkish 1903 Mauser converted to 7.92mm

Chris

[shippingsteel]

4thGordons, on 11 September 2010 - 07:59 PM, said:

Here, for comparison are two Turkish marked German Rifles (GEW88 and GEW98 both 7.92mm) and a Turkish Mauser in 7.92mm dated 1941.
Turkish 1903 Mauser converted to 7.92mm

Chris

Hey Chris, so which is it (in the bottom photo) ..... 7.92mm or 8mm ....??
Just checking .....

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

shippingsteel, on 11 September 2010 - 10:47 PM, said:

Hey Chris, so which is it (in the bottom photo) ..... 7.92mm or 8mm ....??
Just checking .....
Cheers, S>S

nice....
You know it has some very interesting unit markings on it too........I'm sure there is a story there.
Chris

[shippingsteel]

4thGordons, on 11 September 2010 - 03:27 PM, said:

And creating "enfauser" hybrids!

Obviously a mix of Enfield and Mauser characteristics - could you please explain for the unwashed "non-anoraks" amongst us ...!

Cheers, S>S

[4thGordons]

shippingsteel, on 11 September 2010 - 11:00 PM, said:

Obviously a mix of Enfield and Mauser characteristics - could you please explain for the unwashed "non-anoraks" amongst us ...!

Cheers, S>S

Indeed - took SMLEs and rechambered them for 8mm and reconfigured to fit Turkish bayonets... odd looking beasts and given the amount of metalwork I am not sure I would fancy shooting one. SEE HERE
Some nice pictures HERE
Chris

[coppertales]

7.92 is correct.  On this side of the pond we just call it 8mm.  I guess the older Mausers were converted to 8mm.  The flurry of Turk Mausers here was rather short lived.  You don't see many in the gun shows any more, especially the 1893/4 models.....chris3

[bluedog]

Gents

  Many thanks one and all for the information

  Peter

[cdr]

Hello

Belgian army manuals from the late war talk of the use of the Turkish mauser by the infantry. Does anyone know how they got there? I suppose they came either from Gallipoli or from the Middle East

Carl

[TonyE]

Although the Turks converted most of their rifles to 7.92mm, they may have sold some as surplus and Belgium was a natural customer as they used the same 7.65x 53mm calibre as their service round.

Regards
TonyE

[cdr]

Thanks Tonye

But i'm talking about 1917 and 1918. I do not think that Turkey would be selling arms at that time.

Carl