39 replies to this topic

[Suddery]

Martin,

Many thanks for such an exhaustive reply. I'd like to make a few observations to each of your points if I may.

(1) 'My' man committed suicide in August 1914 prior to the Zeppelin  raids and not after. The threat of Zeppelin raids would however, I am  certain, have been just as unsettling as the reality.

I agree that there are many accounts of widespread concern, if not  panic, among the general populace about the imminence of invasion,  particularly on the east coast. I imagine this would have been felt most  keenly by those who were suddenly becoming urgently aware of the  obligations that they had made in their part-time soldiering i.e the  Territorials and Yeomanry.

(2) The points about the gentry taking their servants (and horses) to  territorial service are most interesting and I am aware that some cases  are documented. I would really like to add 'Charlie's War' to my reading  list. Googling the titled picked up a load of piffle, could you provide  with some pointers please ?

(3) An interesting point. I think I would draw your attention to  Michael's posting number 20 where he suggests that it may well have been  the concern about invasion rather than overseas service that triggered, or contributed to significantly, the  poor batman's actions.    

Nothing wrong with speculating based on such a detailed reasoning and I'm most grateful for your contribution.

Suddery

[Martin G]

Suddery said:

1334739065[/url]' post='1741135']
Martin,

(2) The points about the gentry taking their servants (and horses) to  territorial service are most interesting and I am aware that some cases  are documented. I would really like to add 'Charlie's War' to my reading  list. Googling the titled picked up a load of piffle, could you provide  with some pointers

Suddery

Suddery, my slight mistake with the title. It is "Charley's Tale. The Story of an Elvaston Lad 1895-1920"  by Charley Garratt published by Ashwell Books, Bovey Tracey, Devon  1993. Regards MG.

[Suddery]

Martin G, on 18 April 2012 - 05:08 PM, said:

Suddery, my slight mistake with the title. It is "Charley's Tale. The Story of an Elvaston Lad 1895-1920"  by Charley Garratt published by Ashwell Books, Bovey Tracey, Devon  1993. Regards MG.

That's great - I'm on the case.

Many thanks

Suddery

[Chris_Baker]

There will be papers from an inquest about this case. Why not look them up? That's really the only way to determine anything factual about this man's death.

[Suddery]

Chris_Baker, on 18 April 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

There will be papers from an inquest about this case. Why not look them up? That's really the only way to determine anything factual about this man's death.

I have repeatedly refrained from doing this as the purpose of my initial thread was to draw from others examples of reactions to mobilization, the more extraordinary the more potenially interesting. Somewhere along the way the focus of attention has turned towards the individual circumstances of Edward Cadogan's friend's batman and away from the general trawl I had hoped for. I felt the facts we did have were sufficient to stimulate interest in others; he was warned for ammunition and he did pretty quickly thereafter "blow out his brains" after his officer had then requested his sword.

Sensitivity to the decendants of the family of the soldier cited was my primary reason for not delving too far into the particulars of his case, after all Cadogan chose not to name him, but perhaps I need to reflect on this if I wish to continue participating in this particular thread. Cake and eating it may not be the option I had wished for.

Suddery

[truthergw]

Suddery, on 18 April 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

I have repeatedly refrained from doing this as the purpose of my initial thread was to draw from others examples of reactions to mobilization, the more extraordinary the more potenially interesting.

EDIT:...
Suddery

So, essentially you were hoping for instances of the OMIGOD!!! nature? There was a long and involved thread a few years ago about a soldier who cut his own throat in a barracks toilet. Quite a lot of rather gruesome detail if I remember correctly. It should still turn up if you search on Razor, throat cut or something along those lines.

[Martin G]

R A Lloyd's "Troophorse and Trench" doesn't have any gruesome stories but there are some rather interesting accounts of the Life Guards trying to assimilate many Irish cavalry reservists (5th Dragonn Guards I think)  on mobilisation who had a rather different attitude to the strict formality of the Life Guards. They were more interested in using mobilisation as a boozey reunion of sorts. Apparently they were no strangers to the bottle according to Lloyd.

[Suddery]

truthergw, on 18 April 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

So, essentially you were hoping for instances of the OMIGOD!!! nature? There was a long and involved thread a few years ago about a soldier who cut his own throat in a barracks toilet. Quite a lot of rather gruesome detail if I remember correctly. It should still turn up if you search on Razor, throat cut or something along those lines.

No, that's not what I'm looking for. I remember the thread and found some of it quite distasteful. I was looking for the quirky and extraordrinary, not the morbid or grotesque.

Suddery.

[Suddery]

truthergw, on 18 April 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

So, essentially you were hoping for instances of the OMIGOD!!! nature? There was a long and involved thread a few years ago about a soldier who cut his own throat in a barracks toilet. Quite a lot of rather gruesome detail if I remember correctly. It should still turn up if you search on Razor, throat cut or something along those lines.

Here's an example of the sort of thing I'm interested in. It might help illustrate my point to greater effect :

"...there were dramatic incidents even in Berkhamstead. A German master was denounced to my father as a spy because he had been seen under the railway bridge without a hat, a daschund was stoned in the High Street, and once my Uncle Eppy was summoned at night to the police station and asked to lend his motor car to help block the Great North Road down which a German armoured car was said to be advancing towards London"

Graham Greene
August 1914

[truthergw]

Suddery, on 19 April 2012 - 07:01 AM, said:

Here's an example of the sort of thing I'm interested in. It might help illustrate my point to greater effect :

"...there were dramatic incidents even in Berkhamstead. A German master was denounced to my father as a spy because he had been seen under the railway bridge without a hat, a daschund was stoned in the High Street, and once my Uncle Eppy was summoned at night to the police station and asked to lend his motor car to help block the Great North Road down which a German armoured car was said to be advancing towards London"

Graham Greene
August 1914

Is this Graham Greene the well known novelist?

[Suddery]

truthergw, on 19 April 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

Is this Graham Greene the well known novelist?

Certainly is. It's from his biography "A Sort of Life"

[Martin G]

Suddery - there are a handful of very tragic cases of suicide in the days immediately after War was declared.  A retired colonel age 70 killed himself because of the "strain of the war" and that he was too old to serve his country and that he would be an additional mouth to feed.  Another young man attempted suicide as he was the only one of 10 workmates rejected by the recruiting office. There are at least two Germans who having lived in England for decades committed suicide - one because he had been fired from his job of 13 years. Both left very sad letters.... All a fairly grisly aspect of the early days of the War. I imagine for the Germans living in Britain in the years up to the declaration of War it must have been a terrible situation..

With regards to Spies, a search of all the digitised UK newspapers* using "spies" as the keyword and restricting to Aug-Oct 1914 generates hundreds of stories. There are newspaper references to Spy mania days before War was declared.

* There are over 50 British regional newspapers  that have been digitised.

[Suddery]

Martin G, on 26 April 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

Suddery - there are a handful of very tragic cases of suicide in the days immediately after War was declared...

With regards to Spies, a search of all the digitised UK newspapers* using "spies" as the keyword and restricting to Aug-Oct 1914 generates hundreds of stories. There are newspaper references to Spy mania days before War was declared.

* There are over 50 British regional newspapers  that have been digitised.

Many thanks Martin,

the spy aspect hadn't occurred to me and I'll certainly try the search you suggest over the weekend; exactly the sort of hint I was hoping for.

I can only agree that all of the other cases are indeed very sad.

Suddery

[michaeldr]

With regards to Spies, a search of all the digitised UK newspapers* using "spies" as the keyword and restricting to Aug-Oct 1914 generates hundreds of stories. There are newspaper references to Spy mania days before War was declared.

The book to check out is Lenard Sellers' 'Shot in the Tower' republished by Pen & Sword Military in 2009, ISBN 978 184884 026 3

[apparently Dame Stella Rimington (ex-Spy chief, UK) thinks very highly of this book]

[Suddery]

michaeldr, on 27 April 2012 - 08:39 AM, said:

With regards to Spies, a search of all the digitised UK newspapers* using "spies" as the keyword and restricting to Aug-Oct 1914 generates hundreds of stories. There are newspaper references to Spy mania days before War was declared.

The book to check out is Lenard Sellers' 'Shot in the Tower' republished by Pen & Sword Military in 2009, ISBN 978 184884 026 3

[apparently Dame Stella Rimington (ex-Spy chief, UK) thinks very highly of this book]

Will do Michael.  

Thanks as usual

Suddery