19 replies to this topic

[ctpl54]

This photo is possibly of my grandad 2/Lt William Hall STEVENS who served in the 15th Battalion Tank Corps.

Can you eagle-eyed experts confirm, or otherwise, my assumptions. The name on the photo is possibly Captain R P Forster, MC of the 15th Battalion Tank Corps.

Also, can anyone identify the damaged tracked vehicle in the background?

Thanks

Attached Files

•  18_1_1919.jpg   79.75K   2 downloads

[Andrew Upton]

The Officer in question does appear to be a member of the Tank Corps - he has the relevant embroidered tank qualification badge on his top right shoulder, and the TC cap badge. He appears to have a single "something" on each shoulder - a pip would make him a Second Lieutenant, a crown a Major (I think it looks more like a pip, although a very high resolution scan of head and shoulders would clarify). He doesn't appear to be wearing an MC ribband in the picture.

As to the tank - looks like a MkIV or later mark from the rivet spacing above the cab, with the name "BERT" (or "___BERT", given the damage).

[high wood]

Not sure why you think that the officer might be 2nd Lieut William Hall Stevens as the photograph is signed by R. P. Forster who presumably is the man in the photograph. It was possibly given to William Hall Stevens.

[sotonmate]

I agree with hw. Also,as it is now 1919, could the Captain not now be a Major and it is a crown rather than a pip.

[Andrew Upton]

sotonmate, on 29 February 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

I agree with hw. Also,as it is now 1919, could the Captain not now be a Major and it is a crown rather than a pip.

Still no sign of an MC ribband though, which would be even more likely to have been put up the later the date, which would suggest it is not the Captain in question, or a different RP Forster potentially.

[Andrew Upton]

high wood, on 29 February 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

Not sure why you think that the officer might be 2nd Lieut William Hall Stevens as the photograph is signed by R. P. Forster who presumably is the man in the photograph. It was possibly given to William Hall Stevens.

Another plausible suggestion could be the photographer was Captain Forster, the subject was 2/Lt Stevens, and Forster signed and dated it when he gave a copy to Stevens. This would fit with the lack of an MC ribband and the single "pip" if it is a pip (it appears noticably raised, which is much more in line with a pip than a crown, though again I'm sure a high resolution head and shoulders focus would answer it).

[IPT]

I think it's Forster (3rd from right, back row)

http://www.flickr.co...ary/4168845713/

Attached Files

•  Forster.jpg   6.36K   0 downloads

[high wood]

If Captain Forster was the photographer he would be much more likely to have signed it on the back. The convention seems to be that if you are giving someone a photograph of yourself with a dedication you sign it on the front.

[Sidearm]

The tank is a Mark IV Male, "Egbert", serial 2348.  It was a tank damaged at the starting point before it could enter action on 26 September 1917 when under the command of 2.Lt Staniforth.  Brought back to the UK, it toured Britain as a focus for War Savings campaigns, and was eventually presented to West Hartlepool.  The photo clearly shows the crack in the glacis plate.  At some point during its travels this plate lost a chunk of metal leaving a much larger hole.  This is very useful for dating photos of the tank.

Gwyn

[Andrew Upton]

high wood, on 29 February 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

If Captain Forster was the photographer he would be much more likely to have signed it on the back. The convention seems to be that if you are giving someone a photograph of yourself with a dedication you sign it on the front.

I know, but of course "convention" and "seems" don't rule out someone who was unconventional, or things that are not as they would appear... ITP's posting however is much more convincing, but still doesn't explain the lack of an MC ribband or the apparent rank discrepancy.

[IPT]

Is the walking stick a clue?

An obituary of Forster states that he was injured, but no details.

[Phil Evans]

I don't know if it has a bearing on it, but Forster's MC wasn't Gazetted until February 1919.

http://www.london-ga...upplements/2374

Phil

[Andrew Upton]

Phil Evans, on 01 March 2012 - 07:54 PM, said:

I don't know if it has a bearing on it, but Forster's MC wasn't Gazetted until February 1919.

http://www.london-ga...upplements/2374

Phil

That makes sense if the date on the photograph of 18th January 1919 is correct, and would explain the lack of an MC ribband. Now if a promotion to Major could be found that would explain the single something on his shoulders as well, and everything would be neatly tied up.

[Andrew Upton]

IPT, on 01 March 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

Is the walking stick a clue?

An obituary of Forster states that he was injured, but no details.

Possibly related to his injury, but not necessarily - Officers at this time normally carried long, practical canes (not the more common shorter ones used post war). Tank Corps officers apparently also made use of their canes in action to test the state of ground before letting a tank pass over it.

[Phil Evans]

Here's the citation, by the way:

http://www.london-ga...upplements/9732

I can only find him as Temporary Lieutenant (Acting Captain), so far as WW1 goes. Full Captain later (WW2): http://www.london-ga...upplements/2959

Phil

[ctpl54]

Thank you all for your contributions to this topic. It has been a lively discussion.

I do not have the original photo, so I have not been able to focus the image to see whether he is wearing a pip or a crown.

From the records of the 15th Battlion Tank Corps, Lt Forster was promoted to acting Captain 22nd Aug 1918 and was awarded the MC 27th Sept 1918. There is no mention of him being wounded or being sick at this time. Also, Captain Forster was with B Coy, as was my grandad. I was interested to read that canes may have been used by tank commanders to test the ground ahead of the tank.

The lack of the MC ribband on the uniform is drawing me to conclude that the photo is of my grandad and was taken by Captain R P Forster. But why was my grandad looking so glum? The war on the Western Front was over and he had survived, even being wounded in the trenches. Family tales say that grandad was given the job of drawing up a list of those who were to be demobbed, and to the dismay of his superiors, put his own name at the top!  

Thank you Gwyn for the details about the tank.

Cheers
Bill

[delta]

Bill

Thanks for the PM - sadly I do not have any details of 15th Bn tank crews.
However, William Hall Stevens officer's file exists, at the National Archives, which may give a clue.
The national archive reference is WO 339/116805

Stephen

[GRANVILLE]

ctpl54, on 02 March 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

But why was my grandad looking so glum? The war on the Western Front was over and he had survived, even being wounded in the trenches. Family tales say that grandad was given the job of drawing up a list of those who were to be demobbed, and to the dismay of his superiors, put his own name at the top!  

Cheers
Bill

Why looking so glum? Judging by the way he puts his own name at the top of the list it would suggest he's seen too much already and couldn't wait to get away?

Dave

[johnt]

Sorry to add another twist to this interesting debate, but if Egbert was touring Britain during 1918 then could this photo have been taken in Auchy on 18/1/19 as the caption says?  According to Wikipedia there are a number of places called Auchy, all in northern France:

• Auchy-au-Bois, a commune in the Pas-de-Calais department in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region of France
  
• Auchy-lès-Hesdin, a commune in the Pas-de-Calais department and Nord-Pas-de-Calais region of France
  
• Auchy-la-Montagne, a commune in the Oise department in northern France
  
• Auchy-les-Mines, a commune in the Pas-de-Calais department in the Nord-Pas-de-Calais region of France
  
• Auchy-lez-Orchies, a commune in the Nord department in northern France
  
• Villers-sur-Auchy, a commune in the Oise department in northern France

In addition, I can't help feeling that the houses in the background (complete with Union Jack) look rather more English than French.
This suggests the photo was taken in England at an earlier date, and was given as a keepsake to commemorate some event of significance in Auchy on 18/1/19 - perhaps the date when they demobilised? The War Diary may shed some light on this. Unfortunately it would make it impossible to confirm the person's identity by when they were promoted, awarded the MC etc.

John

[delta]

Auchy les Hesdin was one of the villages which formed the bases of the Tank Corps