142 replies to this topic

[rob elliott]

There is a new book out called 'Ambushes and Armour - the Irish rebellion 1919-9121' which may shed some light on the thinking of the use of tanks, although i'm not sure of its contents.

Rob

[Sidearm]

Re-reading the posts from last week on this thread, when I was largely away from computers (bliss!) I note that growing sceptism about my original assertion that the first tanks in Ireland were there in October/November 1917.  

To make my position clear, I have no personal memory of 1917 but my assertion is based on two primary sources - the memoirs of a soldier who was there and his battalion's history.  No-one seems to have provided any evidence for their assertions that there were no tanks in Ireland in 1917, except personal opinions that tanks wouldn't be much use or weren't needed and that books and newspapers don't mention them.  As I have primary sources that do mention them, could I assume that the balance of evidence is strongly in favour of the view that tanks were in Ireland in 1917?

Gwyn

[RobL]

Looking at the photo of the two armoured cars on rails, I think the one on the right is a Peerless or Pierce Arrow armoured lorry as opposed to a Lancia, from what you can see it matches up perfectly, see here;

http://www.landships...e-arrow_kit.htm

[centurion]

Sidearm, on 29 March 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

Re-reading the posts from last week on this thread, when I was largely away from computers (bliss!) I note that growing sceptism about my original assertion that the first tanks in Ireland were there in October/November 1917.  

To make my position clear, I have no personal memory of 1917 but my assertion is based on two primary sources - the memoirs of a soldier who was there and his battalion's history.  No-one seems to have provided any evidence for their assertions that there were no tanks in Ireland in 1917, except personal opinions that tanks wouldn't be much use or weren't needed and that books and newspapers don't mention them.  As I have primary sources that do mention them, could I assume that the balance of evidence is strongly in favour of the view that tanks were in Ireland in 1917?

Gwyn

Proving a negative is difficult however the first formal request for tanks to be sent to Ireland was made on Jan 17 1919  when the military authority for Ireland  telegraphed the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, Sir Henry Wilson. In a speech to the House Wedgewood Benn (today's Benns dad)  in early 1919 was complaining about the  introduction of tanks to Ireland for the first time. Various Nationalist pamphlets also give 1919 as the date of the introduction of tanks to mow down 'innocent Irishmen'

Any possibility that there was a confusion between armoured cars and tanks ? - it's happened elsewhere.

[centurion]

This thread dropped from my ken with the "new improved" forum and I've only just relocated it. In the meantime I opened a new topic http://1914-1918.inv...dpost&p=1439273 which does not show up on either current topics or new topics! Since then I've located a number of different accounts that definitely locate Scotch and Soda at Limerick but in April 1919. One account by a somewhat biased ( strikers become wee school chidren threatened by British machine guns) American reporter (published in 1920) is sufficiently detailed in its description of the barricades on the bridge to allow me to identify a photo of the tank there. Unfortunately only the front half is visible but one can make out the name stenciled on it. The Mg in the male sponson appears to be a Lewis suggesting a Mk IV but definitely in 1919.

[val brown]

RobL, on 09 July 2010 - 11:49 PM, said:

Looking at the photo of the two armoured cars on rails, I think the one on the right is a Peerless or Pierce Arrow armoured lorry as opposed to a Lancia, from what you can see it matches up perfectly, see here;

http://www.landships...e-arrow_kit.htm

the two rail cars are most definitely armoured lancias,, there was a fue different types one of which had a turret but they were all armoured lancia trucks converted over to go on rails,, the ira attacts on the rail system was a serious problem so much so that the national army set up an organization called  " RPR&MC " railway protection repair & maintenance corps they used armoured loco's & armoured wagon's as well as lancia's......

[centurion]

Spotted this murky shot of a Mk V* in Mountjoy Square in 1921 http://www.adams.ie/...s/7025/A346.jpg

One confusing factor is that armoured cars with turrets became known as Whippets in Ireland so a statement that says for example that Whippets were deployed in xx needs to be treated with care.

[centurion]

Spotted this murky shot of a Mk V in Mountjoy Square in 1921 http://www.adams.ie/...s/7025/A346.jpg

One confusing factor is that armoured cars with turrets became known as Whippets in Ireland so a statement that says for example that Whippets were deployed in xx need to be treated with care.

[Sidearm]

centurion, on 10 July 2010 - 11:41 AM, said:

Proving a negative is difficult however the first formal request for tanks to be sent to Ireland was made on Jan 17 1919  when the military authority for Ireland  telegraphed the Chief of the Imperial General Staff, Sir Henry Wilson. In a speech to the House Wedgewood Benn (today's Benns dad)  in early 1919 was complaining about the  introduction of tanks to Ireland for the first time. Various Nationalist pamphlets also give 1919 as the date of the introduction of tanks to mow down 'innocent Irishmen'

Any possibility that there was a confusion between armoured cars and tanks ? - it's happened elsewhere.

I stand by my previous comments.  I'm not arguing about the date of the first formal request for tanks.  I am arguing that tanks were in Ireland in 1917.  The N Battalion history held at Bovington states that on 2 November 1917 a Special Service Company was formed for service in Ireland.  According to one of the officers of that Special Service Company four tanks arrived in Ireland in October 1917.  OK, the dates don't exactly tie up but this is significantly before 1919.  

Gwyn

[Sidearm]

centurion, on 11 July 2010 - 08:53 PM, said:

Since then I've located a number of different accounts that definitely locate Scotch and Soda at Limerick but in April 1919. One account by a somewhat biased ( strikers become wee school chidren threatened by British machine guns) American reporter (published in 1920) is sufficiently detailed in its description of the barricades on the bridge to allow me to identify a photo of the tank there. Unfortunately only the front half is visible but one can make out the name stenciled on it. The Mg in the male sponson appears to be a Lewis suggesting a Mk IV but definitely in 1919.

What are these sources Centurion?  There is a British Pathe newsreel of HMT Scotch and Soda at a roadblock in Limerick - see film 1912.47 on the British Pathe website.  There is no reliable date for this film.  The issue date is 1914-18 but the description suggests it may be circa 1919-20!  How can you know that the American reporter didn't just write about what he had seen on a newsreel?

According to the account of Capt D.B. Gilmore in the Bovington archives, one of the officers of Special Service Company, N Battalion in Ireland from Oct/Nov 1917 one of their four tanks was based in Limerick.  This would have been a Mark I - IV as no later types were available at that date.  So it is perfectly possible for the Mark IV Male HMT Scotch and Soda to be this tank.

Gwyn

[delta]

which would tie in with my ealier post on Bates

[centurion]

Sidearm, on 17 July 2010 - 11:36 AM, said:

What are these sources Centurion?  There is a British Pathe newsreel of HMT Scotch and Soda at a roadblock in Limerick - see film 1912.47 on the British Pathe website.  There is no reliable date for this film.  The issue date is 1914-18 but the description suggests it may be circa 1919-20!  How can you know that the American reporter didn't just write about what he had seen on a newsreel?

She actually

Here's some extracts

"Sorry. No cab, miss," said a constable. "The whole city's on strike."

That explained my inability to get Limerick on the wire. From Kildare I had been trying all morning to reach Limerick on the telephone. All the Limerick shops I passed were blinded or shuttered. In the gray light, black lines of people moved desolately up and down, not allowed to congregate and apparently not wanting to remain in homes they were weary of. A few candles
flickered in windows. After leaving my suitcase at a hotel, I left for the strike headquarters. On my way I neared Sarsfield bridge. Between it and me, there loomed a great black mass. Close to it, I found it was a tank, stenciled with the name of Scotch-and-Soda, and surrounded by massed barbed wire inside a wooden fence. On the bridge, the guards paraded up and down
and called to the people:"


What's the Matter with Ireland? By Ruth Russell describing the Limerick Soviet of 1919 - It matches other local accounts of the Limerick Soviet (one of which I quote below) Russell had actually gone to Limerick to cover won of the competitors in the 1919 Transatlantic Flight Competition who was planning to land at Limerick race course

"On the one hand there was the British state. It had brought in an extra 100 police at the time of the inquest on Robert Byrne. It had considerable military forces including an armoured car on Sarsfield Bridge and a tank (nicknamed "Scotch and Soda"). "

"On the following Monday, there was a more serious affair. A hurling match was held at Caherdavin, on the north bank of the Shannon, outside the area proclaimed. Many used the opportunity to "trail their coats". On returning to the city that evening, some 300 individuals [Russells version turns them into schoolchildren threatened by the tanks Mg gun] refused to show their permits (or denied possession of such) at Sarsfield Bridge check-point. The sentries there were reinforced swiftly by 50 constables and the tank and armoured car."

Dr. O’Connor Lysaght The Limerick Soviet



many  describe the tank as having been  sent there to deal with the strike. If it had been there since 1917 one feels they would have known about it. There is a photo in the Getty library which has been posted on this forum showing Scotch and Soda in its barbed wire and wood on the Sarsfield bridge as described by Ms Russell

[murrough]

Quote

what unit is the diamond on the x crown forces lancia or how is it that most of the armoured cars in dublin seem to have belfast reg numbers

Cant answer the reg question but that unit looks like Irish Free state troops attacking the four courts,but I could be totally wrong.

[west coast]

tank in dublin,  date  ??

[val brown]

west coast, on 18 July 2010 - 12:52 PM, said:

tank in dublin,  date  ??

great photo west coast well done,, its post january 1919 as far as i know there was no austins armoured cars in ireland before january 1919 when the 17th armoured car tank battalion arrived with them,,the austin on the right seems to  have their markings...


http://www.dorsetrar...y/17th-tank.htm

[val brown]

i think sidearm has the proof they were in ireland 1917 they were just a bit camera shy

sorry,, murrough they are irish national army cars but the diamond on them is british it just hadnot been removed when the civil war broke out

[Sidearm]

val brown, on 18 July 2010 - 05:45 PM, said:

great photo west coast well done,, its post january 1919 as far as i know there was no austins armoured cars in ireland before january 1919 when the 17th armoured car tank battalion arrived with them,,the austin on the right seems to  have their markings...


http://www.dorsetrar...y/17th-tank.htm

This also comes from a British Pathe newsreel.  Film 611.04.  It's a Mark V* with home service number 793.  It also belongs to 17th Battalion, which when in Ireland didn't only operate armoured cars.  I have a date of 1920 for it.

Gwyn

[Sidearm]

Oops - sorry to assume the journalist was a gentleman .  

It's a small point, but the name Scotch and Soda actually appears as HMT Scotch & Soda and isn't stencilled.  In many ways however, the debate about the date of this photo is irrelevant, because even if it is 1919 (which I still doubt) that doesn't refute my evidence that tanks of the Special Service Company, N Battalion were in Ireland in autumn 1917.  

As this is an interesting debate about a lesser known use of tanks I'll go back to Bovington and see if there's any information on whether the four tanks that went over in 1917 returned to Britain with N Battalion.  If not, then we might have a situation where this is a N Battalion tank manned by someone other than N Battalion in 1919.

Gwyn

[centurion]

Sidearm, on 19 July 2010 - 09:23 AM, said:

.  

even if it is 1919 (which I still doubt)

The only time there was a block on the bridge was during the Limerick Soviet in 1919. The photo is of the bridge as local sources verify, Getty labels the photo as being of the bridge in 1919 - what more do you want?

[centurion]

Sidearm, on 19 July 2010 - 09:23 AM, said:

  

It's a small point, but the name Scotch and Soda actually appears as HMT Scotch & Soda and isn't stencilled.

Looks too neat to be hand painted
http://homepage.eirc...ges/Ls tank.jpg

[Sidearm]

centurion, on 19 July 2010 - 05:50 PM, said:

The only time there was a block on the bridge was during the Limerick Soviet in 1919. The photo is of the bridge as local sources verify, Getty labels the photo as being of the bridge in 1919 - what more do you want?

Yes, I think that's fair comment.  I'll accept this film is of the tank HMT Scotch & Soda during the general strike called by the Limerick Soviet in April 1919.  I also maintain that that is completely irrelevant to whether there were tanks in Ireland during 1917.

Gwyn

[Sidearm]

centurion, on 19 July 2010 - 07:00 PM, said:

Looks too neat to be hand painted
http://homepage.eirc...ges/Ls tank.jpg

Thanks for the link to this photo which I'd not seen before.  It is though quite a distant shot of the name.  If you want a real close up of the name look at the end of the British Pathe clip I mentioned in a previous post (can't post it for copyright reasons).  This shows it is beautifully handpainted and not stencilled. A minor point but there we are!

Gwyn

[Sidearm]

David Fletcher sent me this today:

"The 14th Bn War History mentions the SSC and says it left for Ireland on 2/11/17 under a chap called Tucker – the War Diary doesn’t mention it at all, it begins in June 1918.

"They call it a Company but I can’t find any mention of the number of tanks.

"Gilmore (who was a Dubliner himself) says that after Marlborough Barracks Dublin he was transferred to Cork with a section of two tanks (the other presumably Scotch & Soda at Limerick). We have two photos (see my Osprey Mk IV book) of another Mark IV – Whiskey & Soda – at Cork  but I assume they stayed on after the men left to rejoin the Battalion.

"The ‘Short History of the Royal Tank Corps’ says that in January 1919 when 17th Armoured Car Company arrived in Dublin, in addition to armoured cars, they had sixteen Whippets and an unspecified number of Mark IV later replaced by Mark V* and Medium B. These were attached to C Company which at that time was based in Dublin."

So, it seems that Mark IV tanks first went to Ireland in autumn 1917 with N Battalion Special Service Company.  The transfer of the two tanks to Cork and Limerick under Gilmore must have taken place before 1919 because Gilmore was serving in France in 1918.  N Battalion left their tanks there (as 14th Battalion they went to France in June 1918).  These tanks were inherited by 17th Battalion when they arrived in January 1919 and the film of the Mark IV in Limerick is a N Battalion tank probably crewed by 17th Battalion personnel.

Bottom line - there were tanks in Ireland in 1917.

Gwyn

[centurion]

Sidearm, on 20 July 2010 - 09:42 AM, said:

"The ‘Short History of the Royal Tank Corps’ says that in January 1919 when 17th Armoured Car Company arrived in Dublin, in addition to armoured cars, they had sixteen Whippets and an unspecified number of Mark IV later replaced by Mark V* and Medium B. These were attached to C Company which at that time was based in Dublin."[/i]

Might need to take care here as the Rolls Royce ACs (Admiralty pattern and model 1920 were known in Ireland as Whippets, indeed the AC at Limerick is referred to in at least one account as a Whippet Tank. Accounts of M Collins often refer to his traveling in a Whippet (which was a RR AC). The twin turret ACs were not called whippets.

[Sidearm]

Thanks for that.  I thought 16 sounded a lot.  Fortunately my main interest is in the heavies.

Gwyn