274 replies to this topic

[butely]

Hi Mathew
Do you have any other information on Frederick Snelling as it would be good to see some or any of his service record.

Hello,

Sorry I missed this post initially.  For your information it looks like he originally enlisted between 15th-17th February 1909. As far as I can see he never went overseas, certainly he didn't do it with 23rd London, and on the Commonwealth War Graves he's listed as attached to the National Rifle Association School of Musketry.

I think this thread should explain a bit of what your GGfather did. [url="http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=122696"]http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=122696[/url]

Best regards,

Matthew
[/quote]

[westkent78]

Sorry,

Nothing further to add on him at present. His papers don't appear to have survived and he wasn't included on the 23rd London roll of honour in the regimental history. I could only approximate his enlistment date because I know when two men with numbers near his enlisted. I'd imagine your best bet to find something else out about his service would be to see what records Bisley has or if there are records for the School of Musketry at the National Archives.

Best regards,
Matthew

[roden1]

Hello Matthew,

My great grandfather was Sergeant Frederick William Norman, 718009, "D" Coy. 1st/23rd Bn., London Regiment. Would be great to find out more information about him and his company.

Enlisted into 21st Battalion County of London Regiment and promoted to Sergeant 16/9/14. At Morn Hill camp, Winchester in 1916. Posted to 12 Battalion 18/3/17. Commenced overseas service with British Expeditionary Force. Transferred to Surrey Corps 11/4/17. Transferred to London Regiment and posted to 23rd Battalion 30/1/18. In D company defending village of Metz when Germans launched massive attack on  23/3/1918. Died of wounds 26/3/18 at No 49 Casualty Clearing Station.



many thanks for the useful thread.

patrick

[westkent78]

Hello Patrick,

Thanks for posting.

Have you seen Frederick's service papers on Ancestry? Not the greatest condition but better than a lot I've seen and they should fill in quite a few blanks.

He was part of the transfer of a large portion of the 1/12th London (around 200 men, although only 9 were serjeants) into the 1/23rd when the 1/12th were broken up.  Here is the 12th London's history which should fil in what he was doing with them. http://archive.org/d...historica00whee . Page 164-5 explains the transfer to the 1/23rd.

Here is the war diary for 1/23rd, which should explain a lot. http://qrrarchive.we...u2.aspx?reg=ESR. D Coy were the rearguard for the battalion, and it looks like he survived the withdrawal on 23rd and 24th, only to be wounded in the back the next day, succumbing on 26th. How did you find out he died at 49th CCS?

Of the eight other serjeants who transferred with him, two were killed on 23rd March, another was killed on 5th April, and yet another captured on that day.

Best regards,

Matthew

[roden1]

Hello Matthew,
Thank you for the useful information. I was able to find the service record on ancestry, there is quite a lot! Is that where you saw that he sustained a back wound? I got the hand written diaries of the 1/23 where it details the retreat from metz area on 23rd march, with D coy covering. About the clearing station I got that from my father's notes, will try and find out more. He had a brother who was serving in Essex volunteer regiment (as far as i can tell from cap badge) but don't have much more information yet about that regiment, or what he was doing.

Attached picture of Frederick, will try and find some more...

Best regards,
Patrick

Attached Files

•  fred_w_norman.jpg   19.4K   1 downloads

[westkent78]

Great picture Patrick. Thanks for sharing.

Must have been taken when he came home on leave after his transition to 1/23rd. His papers mention him coming home in Feb 1918 I think, so at least he saw the family one last time.

His papers mention a GSW Back and the date is very indistinct but I think it's 25/3/18.

Best regards,

Matthew

[roden1]

Thanks Matthew, yes the timing of the photo must have been around feb 18. Here is another one not sure where. Not relevant to this thread as it was probably before he joined 23rd, maybe with the 12th? I cannot tell from the cap badges. But a good photo worth sharing (had to adjust size)  fred_company3.jpg   86.11K   0 downloads. If you have any idea on this, or any other info would be good to hear.

[westkent78]

Looks like it might be him in the 12th. Can't really tell with the badges being so small. Possibly a platoon photo, interesting that he's the central figure and the only serjeant there. I'd guess at a UK-based photo.
Matthew

[Peter Smith]

Hello

My name is Peter Smith and I am researching my father Percy Henry Victor Smith

He was born in 1887 and enlisted into 3/23rd No.4518 28/6/15
transferred to the 21st reserve No. 701573 17/11/16

Discharged No longer physically fit 21/12/18

Overseas service

France 27/10/15 to 04/10/16

Salonika 16/01/17 to 16/06/17

Egypt 17/06/17 to 23/06/18

France 24/06/18 to 12/08/18

Wounded  Shell 19/09/16 and Gun Shot wound (chin) 09/08/18

I would like to find out exactly where he was serving and possibly what action he saw but it is difficult to understand the battalion movements so any information/pointers would be gratefully received

Additional information

Disembarked

Harve 27/10/15

Salonika 01/02/17

Alexandria 19/06/17

? (illegible) 30/06/18 Must have been somewhere in France.

[westkent78]

Hello Peter,

Thanks for getting in touch.

Your father served overseas with both 1/23rd London and 2/23rd London. Not too many men in the regiment did that.

From the records it looks like he joins 1/23rd in France in 1915 and remains with them until he's wounded at High Wood on the 16th September, the same day my grandfather was wounded. Wonder if they knew of each other? Then transfers to 3/21st while he's recuperating from his wounded ankle in UK. When he's fit again in Jan 1917 he's sent out in a draft to 2/23rd in Salonika, and stays with them through all their time there and in Egypt. He returns to the Western Front when 2/23rd are transferred to 30th Division and service just south of Dunkirk on the French-Belgian border. His final wounding isn't mentioned in the war diary, but it looks like they were moving up to the front line, so perhaps a sniper caused it.

For now your best bets are the war diaries:  http://qrrarchive.we...u2.aspx?reg=ESR and the official history http://www.naval-mil...1798-1919..html., and there are some bits on 16th September in this thread or elsewhere on the forum.

The illegible name that you mention for 30/06/18 is Taranto. They sailed the Med to Italy and then went by train through Italy to Northern France. 2/23rd certainly got to see quite a bit of Europe and the Middle East compared to the experience of 1/23rd.

Incidentally, did you get the additional pages from his service record? Not much on them but worth having. The Ancestry Indexing puts you about three pages into his complete file when you type in his name and the preceeding pages are also part of his file. It's slightly annoying that a couple of sheets you often find in the service papers haven't survived for him, namely those that record every little detail about his movements and would show which Casualty Clearing Station he was sent to after his woundings and his route home after each, but at least you have the bulk of his file.

Do you happen to have any photos of him you could share with me on here or via pm? I have a special interest in those 16th September men.

Best regards,

Matthew

[MCGRUDER]

Hi there,

I'm new to all this, my first post.

My great uncle, Joseph FRASER served with the 23rd. He bought it near Highwood on 16th September 1916, as did many others in the battalion that day, but i have very little information other than what is given out by the CWGC.

Have you come across anything on Joseph that you could share ?

Thanks,

Stuart

[westkent78]

Hello Stuart,

Thanks for getting in touch. Welcome to the forum.

You're lucky that Joseph's service papers have survived and are on Ancestry, although a bit faded. http://search.ancest...ervice&h=711667

He attested on 27th May 1915 for the 23rd London, his local regiment, and was trained in 3/23rd. On 27th Oct 1915 he was sent to 1/23rd and remained with them, apart from a bout of pyrexia, until his death. Possibly he was in B Company. He was declared missing 16th Sept, but it wasn't until July 1917 that he was presumed dead. Looks like his father was serving in the Royal Defence Corps too.

Check my post just above your one and that should give you the links you need for background as to what Joseph may have been doing. I'd be interested in a picture of him if you have any to share.

Best regards,

Matthew

[Peter Smith]

Hello Matthew

Thank you for the information it was very helpful will look at the links that you provided.

I do have a photograph of my Father but it is framed I will check with the rest of my family to see if I can get a copy.


Regards Peter

[MCGRUDER]

westkent78, on 02 May 2012 - 03:58 PM, said:

Hello Stuart,

Thanks for getting in touch. Welcome to the forum.

You're lucky that Joseph's service papers have survived and are on Ancestry, although a bit faded. http://search.ancest...ervice&h=711667

He attested on 27th May 1915 for the 23rd London, his local regiment, and was trained in 3/23rd. On 27th Oct 1915 he was sent to 1/23rd and remained with them, apart from a bout of pyrexia, until his death. Possibly he was in B Company. He was declared missing 16th Sept, but it wasn't until July 1917 that he was presumed dead. Looks like his father was serving in the Royal Defence Corps too.

Check my post just above your one and that should give you the links you need for background as to what Joseph may have been doing. I'd be interested in a picture of him if you have any to share.

Best regards,

Matthew

Thanks for the info Matthew, its a big help.

Sorry I don't have a photo of Joseph but if I come across one I will let you know.

Again, Many thanks,

Stuart
  

[Suddery]

Hi Matthew,

Currently researching my Great Uncle (not as obscure as it sounds because I knew my Great Grandparents and the memories are very much alive with my Mother) , Pte W.A.Rourke 5658 who died of wounds in Rouen on 10/10/16.

I can't establish if he was 1/23rd or 2/23rd but from service number it seems that he may have been a Derby entrant to either battalion.  I'm trying to tease out his likeness from family photographs but thus far have found only an 'in memoriam' card.

We know quite a lot about his brothers service and I have service records for two of them but, in common with many families, less was said about those who did not return. He had no children so I very much doubt any of the family has visited his grave - something I want to put right next year.

I do have MIC and CWGC details but as he appears to have died of wounds in Rouen we know little more. I do know 2/22nd were active trench raiding around this time but it might be a little fanciful to suppose he was injured in such action.

Any help much appreciated.

Suddery

[westkent78]

Suddery, on 10 May 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Hi Matthew,

Currently researching my Great Uncle (not as obscure as it sounds because I knew my Great Grandparents and the memories are very much alive with my Mother) , Pte W.A.Rourke 5658 who died of wounds in Rouen on 10/10/16.

I can't establish if he was 1/23rd or 2/23rd but from service number it seems that he may have been a Derby entrant to either battalion.  I'm trying to tease out his likeness from family photographs but thus far have found only an 'in memoriam' card.

We know quite a lot about his brothers service and I have service records for two of them but, in common with many families, less was said about those who did not return. He had no children so I very much doubt any of the family has visited his grave - something I want to put right next year.

I do have MIC and CWGC details but as he appears to have died of wounds in Rouen we know little more. I do know 2/22nd were active trench raiding around this time but it might be a little fanciful to suppose he was injured in such action.

Any help much appreciated.

Suddery

Hello Suddery,

He was 1/23rd.  Originally enlisted into 5th KRRC as R/18693, probably mid Feb to early March 1916, and transferred in a batch of around 100 reinforcements from 5th KRRC to 3/23rd on 6th June 1916, prior to crossing the channel on 15th/16th June. He most likely was in the draft which actually made it to the battalion in the field on 3rd July. My guess would be that he was wounded on 1st/2nd October in the advance from Prue Trench and O.B.1 to Eaucourt L'Abbaye http://qrrarchive.we...12319161001.pdf as he'd have probably been moved to UK if he'd been wounded any earlier.  He was living on Gray's Inn Road when he enlisted, and SDITGW has him listed as born at King's Cross and enlisting at Holborn.

If you do get a chance to visit his grave I'd appreciate a digital photo if possible. A forum member was going to 'do' all the St. Sever-residing 23rd London men for me last year, but his plans fell through. Can you please tell me who his brothers were as I'm always interested in working out the siblings' service, and his parents, as it will help me identify him quicker in the various census. The social makeup of the 23rd Londons is one which the History couldn't really deal with but it's something that I'm attempting to rectify.

Best regards,

Matthew

[Suddery]

Great Stuff Matthew.

All of the family lived at 20 Ampton Street, St Pancras and were variously employed around the family business, a Fishmonger's and Restaurant at 190 Caledonian Rd Islington. This was frequented by my Mother into the late 1930's and her Granny lived above. The Gray's Inn address crops up frequently as that is where the local registry office was. Frederick Rourke was the patriarch, rumoured to be a first generation London Irishman and known to be a great chap - had the head of his favourite dog stuffed and mounted in the hallway.

Brothers who served were :

Bertie - City of London  3rd Yeomanry (R.R) 3254 -  Attchd Egyptian Camel Corps - Compulsorily Xfer MGC 166026 in 1918, thence to France. A cold shoer who retrained as a Messenger Pigeon Carer in Signals when Yeomanry dismounted. Full Service History on Ancestry and a fascinating read it is.

Albert Fredrick (yes, I know, brothers named Bert and Albert) - Currently tracing possibly 6th Dragoons (Carabiniers or Iniskilling not yet known) GS7326 / D13146.

Earnest or Ernest - Pre War TA in 1st London Brigade RFA. Seemed to have not enjoyed summer camp and had early discharge. TA Service record on Ancestry SN 471. Currently tracing what happened next.

The news about the KRRC is significant as it does mean Mother has a photo of him (I had sidelined it for the moment thinking it was another London Battalion and also on the basis that there was no likely candidate).

The social stuff fascinates me as much as the military and if you find anything else I'd love to know.  When I go next year photos will be a given.

Again, many thanks.

Suddery

[Suddery]

[quote name='westkent78' timestamp='1336664239' post='1750179']
Hello Suddery,

He was 1/23rd.  Originally enlisted into 5th KRRC as R/18693, probably mid Feb to early March 1916, and transferred in a batch of around 100 reinforcements from 5th KRRC to 3/23rd on 6th June 1916, prior to crossing the channel on 15th/16th June.

Apologies Matthew, can I just clarify do you mean1/23rd ?


Suddery

[westkent78]

Glad to be of help and exciting that you do have a photo of him after all. Thanks for the information about the family.

No, he transferred into 3/23rd. By that stage of the war the 23rd London had 1/23rd in France and 2/23rd was no longer a reinforcement battalion for 1/23rd but was preparing to go overseas themselves. This meant that the regiment had formed a 3rd battalion as the training unit in UK. So I expect that word was sent from the War Office that 1/23rd needed building up before going to the Somme and 3/23rd didn't have enough trained men ready as they were supplying final drafts to top up 2/23rd, so 5th KRRC was ordered to send a draft of men to 3/23rd. They were sent to 3/23rd and hung around the battalion for 10 days while the full draft of men to go overseas was finalized. In the end it was something like 230 men in total with men from KRRC, Essex Regt and Ox & Bucks L.I. making up most of the draft.

Matthew

[Suddery]

Fascinating - if you ever publish anything based on the 23rds make sure to PM those of us who hang on to their coat-tails.

Best regards
Suddery

[si168]

Hi
i am  doing a bit of research on 1664 Private Thomas Albert Harding 1/23BN London regiment KIA 15/09/16 aged 21

1911 Census lived in 13 Stockwood Street Plough Rd Battersea
his Father Levi Harding was down as living at 62, Hope St., York Rd., Battersea, London. according to the CWGC

i have just purchased him Memorial Plaque. i don't suppose you have more info on him in your data base?

cheers

Si

[westkent78]

Hello Si,

Great plaque. Wish I'd seen it!

Harding served in C company and would have enlisted in mid May 1913 (between 13th and 20th). His papers don't appear to have survived. He went overseas on 14th/15th March 1915.

Best regards,
Matthew

[si168]

Many Thanks Mathew,
i just have to find his 1914/15 trio now, his father Levi was originally from the next Village to where i was born in Hampshire.

I don't suppose you know what the Battalion was doing at the time of his death do you?

cheers

Si

[Pat Atkins]

westkent78, on 02 March 2011 - 09:41 PM, said:

Hello Sophie,

Welcome to the forum.

It appears that his service papers haven't survived but from his number he probably enlisted on 12th or 13th September 1914. He was a stock exchange clerk at the time.  He was killed in the attack at Givenchy where the 1/23rd London suffered around 500 casualties in a charge capturing a trench line and then holding it all day, exposed to artillery and machine gun fire with little chance of response. Coincidentally I have a copy of a photo of "Rich" and three of his pals taken in St. Albans and an account written by one of his friends which describes the experience at Givenchy, and includes how "Rich" died, which another member kindly shared with me. I'll share them with you if you are able to pm me your email.

I'd definitely like to get those copies and see the photo as it all provides information on the mindset of the battalion in the early days.

Best regards,
Matthew

My great-uncle, William Atkins, served with 1/23 London Regt and was also killed in action aged 20 on 26th May 1915, and is commemorated at Le Touret. I guess this isn't very useful as I have no details of his service or the circumstances of his death, sorry.

As a point of general interest one of his brothers, Herbert Atkins (23), died on the same day but in Gallipoli with 2nd Royal Fusiliers; of his other two brothers who survived the War one (my grandfather) was made POW at Le Cateau in 1914 and the other joined up the same month his brothers were killed, I believe.

[westkent78]

si168, on 09 July 2012 - 06:51 PM, said:

I don't suppose you know what the Battalion was doing at the time of his death do you?

cheers

Si

Here's the war diary. http://qrrarchive.we....net/menu4.aspx

Be prepared to pay over the top to get the reunite if you find them anywhere but local to you- it won't be cheap! I'll keep my eye out for you.

Best regards,
Matthew