32 replies to this topic

[Melvin Hurst]

I have attached one of the most widely published photographs of the events leading up to Mons, taken in the town square on 22^nd August 1914. If the date is correct it must have been just before the soldiers moved up to take their positions along the Mons-Condé Canal near Nimy.

All captions I have seen state that the men are from A Company of the 4^thbattalion of the Royal Fusiliers, who were indeed in that place at that time. Apart from its intrinsic interest as a record of the BEF prior to its first day of action, it is the man facing the camera in the centre who has always held a fascination for me. Many of the faces in photographs of this time don't stand out so clearly, perhaps because many of them were taken with the men wearing service caps, which tends to limit the overall image. This man appears full face, and it is hard to imagine that a friend or relative on seeing that photo wouldn't immediately recognize him. He might have been a regular or a recently recalled reservist, with aching feet from marching on the pavé roads. With hindsight we know what was in store for him, but was going through his mind –his face doesn't show.

Is there any way of identifying an ordinary soldier from such a photo? Were official company photographs taken prior to embarkation for France? If any could be found, might there be a way of identifying individual soldiers after all this time? It is very unlikely that the man in the photo came through the next four months unscathed, but it would be good to know what actually happened to him, out of interest and also as a tribute to what he and his comrades went through.

[Melvin Hurst]

Sorry, but I forgot to press the right button to attach the photo. However, when I went back to do it properly I was informed that the file was too big. It is only 363 kb in size - surely this isn't very large?

[BillyH]

Melvin,
It has to be less than 100 KB, you can resize the picture as well as compress it.
Go on, give it another go!

BillyH

[Michelle Young]

I am sure that I read an article a few years back which suggested that photo was taken after the action- wish I could find it or remember where I read it, the men look exhausted and dishevelled, and it is a very striking image.

Michelle

[Edward1]

Melvin`s Faces at Mons

Attached Files

•  mons2a.jpg   91.55K   9 downloads

[Edward1]

Cropped to centre faces.
Not to clear Im afraid

Attached Files

•  Monsb2_edited-1.jpg   85.86K   1 downloads

[BillyH]

Just for the record that photo appears in "The Faces of World War 1" by Max Arthur, although I am sure it must appear in several other books?
It is captioned "A company of 4th Battalion Royal Fusiliers resting in the Grand Place Mons 22nd August, before the battle the following day, during which the battalion won two VC's (Lieutenant Dease and Private Godley) on the canal bridge at Vimy, two miles north of Mons"

The man looking straight at the camera further along the row with the cap looks very easily recognisable as well, and curiously in the book mentioned above appears on the very next page, in close up, arm in arm with a soldier with a nasty head wound. This photo is captioned "British & Belgian soldiers retreating from Mons"

BillyH

[GRUMPY]

Melvin Hurst, on 01 April 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

I have attached one of the most widely published photographs of the events leading up to Mons, taken in the town square on 22^nd August 1914. If the date is correct it must have been just before the soldiers moved up to take their positions along the Mons-Condé Canal near Nimy.

All captions I have seen state that the men are from A Company of the 4^thbattalion of the Royal Fusiliers, who were indeed in that place at that time. Apart from its intrinsic interest as a record of the BEF prior to its first day of action, it is the man facing the camera in the centre who has always held a fascination for me. Many of the faces in photographs of this time don't stand out so clearly, perhaps because many of them were taken with the men wearing service caps, which tends to limit the overall image. This man appears full face, and it is hard to imagine that a friend or relative on seeing that photo wouldn't immediately recognize him. He might have been a regular or a recently recalled reservist, with aching feet from marching on the pavé roads. With hindsight we know what was in store for him, but was going through his mind –his face doesn't show.

Is there any way of identifying an ordinary soldier from such a photo? Were official company photographs taken prior to embarkation for France? If any could be found, might there be a way of identifying individual soldiers after all this time? It is very unlikely that the man in the photo came through the next four months unscathed, but it would be good to know what actually happened to him, out of interest and also as a tribute to what he and his comrades went through.

I am intrigued! If indeed this is 4th RF, then you are right: about 1500 casualties [all causes including PoW] up to end November.

However, there are myths about casualties ..... "death of an army" etc, which are belied by the take-up of the 1914 star to the living...... ie. men who survived all four years.

[Melvin Hurst]

GRUMPY, on 01 April 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

I am intrigued! If indeed this is 4th RF, then you are right: about 1500 casualties [all causes including PoW] up to end November.

However, there are myths about casualties ..... "death of an army" etc, which are belied by the take-up of the 1914 star to the living...... ie. men who survived all four years.

That's a good point, but how many medal winners would have gone out in August 1914? The original BEF may have virtually disappeared as a fighting force by the end of 1914, but nearly 40% of the Regular Army's infantry strength wasn't involved in the 1914 fighting at all, initially being on overseas garrison duty and returning either too late in the year, or not until early the next year.

[Melvin Hurst]

Michelle Young, on 01 April 2012 - 11:51 AM, said:

I am sure that I read an article a few years back which suggested that photo was taken after the action- wish I could find it or remember where I read it, the men look exhausted and dishevelled, and it is a very striking image.

Michelle

It's hard to imagine that it was taken after the action, Michelle, as the RFs were in full retreat from Mons by the late afternoon of the 23rd August, and would not have had time to sit in the square and relax with several thousand Germans pouring through the city streets around them! I think that they look exhausted because they had been marching steadily from the railheads for the previous few days.

Melvin

[Michelle Young]

I didn't imagine it, both my Dad and husband remember reading it. I will see if I can find it sometime this week.

Michelle

[GRUMPY]

Melvin Hurst, on 02 April 2012 - 04:53 AM, said:

That's a good point, but how many medal winners would have gone out in August 1914? The original BEF may have virtually disappeared as a fighting force by the end of 1914, but nearly 40% of the Regular Army's infantry strength wasn't involved in the 1914 fighting at all, initially being on overseas garrison duty and returning either too late in the year, or not until early the next year.

2nd RWF were the second infantry unit ashore, on 11th Aug. They were not very heavily engaged in August, but were so thereafter. A very surprisng number made it to the end, albeit a proportion ended up in Labout units etc.

[BillyH]

Going back to my previous post #7 I attach the 2 pages from Max Arthurs book.
This book clearly states that the first picture is 22nd August, before the battle - and the second (fairly obviously) is taken during the retreat.
There is no evidence of any injured men in the Grand Place photo either, their look of fatigue could just be the affects of a long march?
I think it is curious that the fusilier looking straight at the camera in the first picture appears to be the same one helping the injured man in the second photo?
Due to limitations on file size the second photo will be posted separately.

BillyH


 IMG_1646.JPG   91.5K   0 downloads

[BillyH]

 IMG_1649.JPG   86.7K   0 downloadsSecond photo  -  same fusilier as in first photo?

BillyH

[Pighills]

I dont' think it is the same man, to me they have difference shaped faces for a start.  What do others think?

[Graeme Heavey]

The picture was taken post battle and on the hoof as they were falling back.

Its not the same man in those photos I suspect

[drummer]

If I may weigh in....I think The Pals determined that the two men are actually Royal Marines (can't find the thread) and that the photo was taken somewhere during the action around Antwerp (looks like Belgian troops behind them and the Brits are wearing gaiters). It is a powerful image and is often used to illustrate The Retreat, but IMO, has nothing to do with Mons. I have seen motion pictures of these two on some documentary or another...
Drummer

[BillyH]

Still think it could be the same man  -  doesn't anyone else agree ? !

BillyH

 IMG_1651.JPG   64.28K   2 downloads  IMG_1652.JPG   33K   3 downloads

[Will I Davies]

BillyH, on 02 April 2012 - 11:08 AM, said:

Still think it could be the same man  -  doesn't anyone else agree ? !

BillyH

IMG_1651.JPG IMG_1652.JPG

I agree, it looks to be the same man, the forehead is very much the same shape as well as the ears.

Will

[GRUMPY]

drummer, on 02 April 2012 - 10:12 AM, said:

If I may weigh in....I think The Pals determined that the two men are actually Royal Marines (can't find the thread) and that the photo was taken somewhere during the action around Antwerp (looks like Belgian troops behind them and the Brits are wearing gaiters). It is a powerful image and is often used to illustrate The Retreat, but IMO, has nothing to do with Mons. I have seen motion pictures of these two on some documentary or another...
Drummer

Marines? What about the headdress then?

[drummer]

Well, I am out of my league here, but those more learned than I posted pictures of RMs (notably gathered around an armored car)in 1914 sporting the service cap..in the full length shot, these two are wearing gaiters rather than puttees, which I thought were Royal Marine kit....

[Andrew Upton]

drummer, on 02 April 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

Well, I am out of my league here, but those more learned than I posted pictures of RMs (notably gathered around an armored car)in 1914 sporting the service cap..in the full length shot, these two are wearing gaiters rather than puttees, which I thought were Royal Marine kit....

Drummer, I know the same thread you are thinking of and the men in the second photo are as you describe, and recognizable as such from wearing long convas gaitors instead of puttees. So they cannot be the same man as in the first photo, no matter how alike they might appear!

[GRUMPY]

am I wrong about Marine titfers, then?  ........... not my scene.

[Andrew Upton]

GRUMPY, on 02 April 2012 - 04:34 PM, said:

am I wrong about Marine titfers, then?  ........... not my scene.

A lot of Naval roles serving on-shore basically went into khaki for the duration. Have a copy somewhere of a photo showing what you would swear was a normal infantryman if he didn't have his ships cap band on his SD cap...

[momsirish]

Pighills, on 02 April 2012 - 09:18 AM, said:

I dont' think it is the same man, to me they have difference shaped faces for a start.  What do others think?

Just putting my two cents worth in;  I agree with Kim, the face shapes are different and the man in the first photo has a much fuller head of hair than the man in the second photo.