108 replies to this topic

[towisuk]

It was an ironic comment Terry, I started a previous thread on developers in the Salient..........

http://1914-1918.inv...howtopic=160637

regards
Tom

[tafski]

just back yesterday  roof  trusses now on
tafski

[J Banning]

Pic from a couple of days ago.

Attached Files

•  2011-08-23 11.20.41.jpg   47.74K   2 downloads

[(Hugh)]

The case against this development is still alive, but the problem is as follows:-





FLEMISH COURTS ARE NOT WORKING

Front page of "De Morgen", 04.04.11

http://www.demorgen.be/dm/nl/5036/Wetstraat/article/detail/1245459/2011/04/04/Vlaamse-rechtbanken-werken-niet.dhtml




(...)

Shortly before the elections of 2009, the previous Flemish government Peeters I quickly installed two specifically Flemish civil courts. Their aim was a quicker and more efficient judiciary process.

Speed and efficiency were the reasons why the Constitutional Court approved of the creation of these bodies. Two years on, precious little of it is evident.

(...) the Council for Permit Disputes (Raad voor Vergunningsbetwistingen) which – as its name suggests – takes appeals against building permits away from the minister and the Council of State, does not win prizes for the speediness desired. Its annual report on 2009-2010 states: "During its first year, the Council received no fewer than 753 requests for suspension or annulment. Opposite this influx stand only 110 verdicts." Delays in the finalizing of appeals easily exceed 12 months. (...) From its inception, the Council has been wrestling with a shortage of staff. Only three out of five magistrates have been appointed and only one out of two clerks.


The case before this court is that the house is 40% larger than the maximum allowed under planning law for that area, and a secondary building not yet built on the plot, is 50% larger than planning laws allow.

Hugh

[River97]

I guess if the house is that far into construction, it may as well be finished and lived in. I don't like it as much as the rest, but the damage has been done.

If anything, I would have liked to see them put the dirt and rubble pile outside the building site. Who knows what's in there.

Cheers Andy.

[chrislock]

iain mchenry, on 04 June 2011 - 07:59 AM, said:

Andy,

Work had already begun on the house a number of months ago. See post 175 of this thread:

http://1914-1918.inv...c=124909&st=150

If as Bob mentions in the first post here that the court case has collapsed against the Save Hill 60 group who has to foot the court costs? I'm sure Hugh will be on in due course to give us the full facts.

Regards

Iain

Hi Hugh.

Can you answer Iain's question please?

[towisuk]

I think if you read the first line of Hugh's last posting Chris the case is still on-going..
The fact is that it appears that Belgium has turned into a third world country where they are unable (or unwilling) to uphold the law.
No good saying these are the rules, abide by them..then letting the developers ignore the guidelines, incompetence or selective ignorance..!!
regards
Tom

[Yankee Snaffles]

Here in the States, the problem of buiding on the battlefields has slowed and on battlefields like Gettysburg, modern houses are being bought and removed, not added.  Hopefully, even though this one is up, it can be a wake-up call to stop further encroachments on land where so many Tommies gave their lives.

[conner]

I have followed this subject without comment but the photos of the structure are rather depressing and i will make a qualified comment.  I do respect the notion of sovereignty and the importance of private property.  Certainly i would be incensed if a Belgian purported to scold a Canadian on where and how he/she choses to build a home.  (we use wood btw)  And I know the whole area was one big battlefield.  But honestly, of all the places, was a spot so close to a preserved site like this the only option for the owner?  This is why I will limit my next visit to the Somme and environs exclusively.

[towisuk]

Yankee Snaffles, on 27 August 2011 - 08:12 PM, said:

Here in the States, the problem of buiding on the battlefields has slowed and on battlefields like Gettysburg, modern houses are being bought and removed, not added.  Hopefully, even though this one is up, it can be a wake-up call to stop further encroachments on land where so many Tommies gave their lives.

This one at hill 60 is up illegally if one reads Hughes earlier posting (#29), it breaks the rules, so lets just see how the authorities "reward" the developer, "when" and "if" the appeal is heard by the civil court.
And going by Davids site of body discoveries on Google Earth........

http://maps.google.c...3eb9cd9&t=h&z=8

it is easy to see the lack of remains recovered, even on major battlefied site developements in the salient
I wonder if the tour guides ever mention this to their bus-loads of tourists who contribute to the areas finances through money spent in hotels, bars, shops etc. I bet not...they carry on taking them to the Menin Gate for the Last Post Ceremony which has long since lost it's real meaning,
and become a "must see" on the tour ittinary.
What is more important....a symbol of the Great War, or the potential to recover some of the bodies, taken in that war, that still lie scattered around the Salient? Where is honour?
regards
Tom

[David Faulder]

towisuk, on 28 August 2011 - 07:04 AM, said:

>><<
And going by David's site of body discoveries on Google Earth........

http://maps.google.c...3eb9cd9&t=h&z=8

it is easy to see the lack of remains recovered, even on major battlefied site developements in the salient
>><<
Tom

Tom,

Whilst I share a general concern about developments on battlefields, I think two points need making:

• The "lack of discoveries" on my map does not necessarily  mean that there are remains there to be found.  I plot on the map those recent discoveries about which I can find details (internet searches etc.).  The earliest that I have listed is 1978 - and it is not a complete list from that date - by the very nature of how I gather data (I am open to receiving details of any verifiable descoveries or subsequent reburials).  In due course I may ask CWGC/JCCC to give me a complete list from say 2000 - but at the moment my interest is in current recoveries and the efforts put into either identifying them, or at the least taking sufficient samples so that if technology (or other data) evolves a later attempt at identification can be made. (Once remains are in an "known unto God" grave there is currently nothing that can or should be done.)  In a particular area there may be no discoveries because:
  • It was not actually a battlefield or no one died there
  • They were no remains left on a particular battlefield after the battle
  • The post war clearances recovered the remains
  • Unrecovered remains are now deep below the surface
  • Unrecovered remains were destroyed by shell fire and would not be recognised by many as "remains" (The "de minimus" debate)
• I personally don't think we can adopt a blanket "sacred ground" attitude and seek to see all development forbidden.  I personally am firmly of the opinion that one of the reasons for fighting the war (and losing relatives) was that Belgians should be free to enjoy their land without interference from outsiders.  In some areas we may hope that development policies would have regard to specific areas where there was heavy or significant fighting - controlling development (even if only with regard to tourism impact) and requiring processes to be in place to both clear remains near the surface of any proposed development and to handle any subsequent remains that may be found.  (I would possibly anticipate for instance that a developer might have to take out an indemnity insurance policy to fund the cost of processing remains).

David

[Chris_Baker]

There was no place with heavier or more significant fighting than Hill 60. The battleground did not stop conveniently at the road side. The house is being built on one of the most significant battlefields of our times and the loss of this ground to us and future generations is, in my view, just appalling. I can not come to terms with the evident desire of Flanders to remember (it is about to pour millions of Euros into umpteen centennial projects) with its slapdash approach to this particular project.

[chrislock]

I guess Belgium is simply too small to preserve the Great War heritage and the remains of our fallen in the eyes of many here unless of course it has a strong euro value.
This week a neighbour of mine informed me that during a recent house extension build nearby, several tommies were found complete with much equipment. I drove over to see what was what but on arrival the concrete base was in and that was that. I was informed on site that no bodies or equipment had been found yet parked alongside was a private car. The boot lid was open and it was full of rotting webbing, rusty, mud covered equipment including many live rifle grenades and Mills No 5's.
On returning home I rang the police, gave the vehicle registration number and my report and it is now in their hands. I have heard nothing since. My neighbour is adament that there were several plus more complete bodies in the pit. He wishes to comment no further.

The fact is, since the Diggers were prevented from recovering the fallen, there have been very few reinternments here in the Salient area compared to when they were active.
Perhaps that speaks volumes.

Chris

[chrislock]

CWGC Burials - 1st / 2nd September 2011
Over the last few years dating back to September 2007, several remains of British Soldiers from the First World War have been found in the Western Front area. On September 1st and 2nd this year, re-burial services will be held at several cemeteries across this region for these fallen soldiers.

For further details, please see below –

September 1st 2011 -

1000-1100 hrs

Windy Corner Guards Cemetery – Cuinchy

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF AN UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIER OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR

1300-1400 hrs

Sanders Keep Cemetery – Graincourt-Les-Havrincourt

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF AN UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIER OF THE MACHINE GUN CORPS

1430-1600 hrs

Peronne Communal Cemetery Extension

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF THREE UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIERS OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR

September 2nd 2011 -

1000-1130 hrs


Adelaide Cemetery Villers-Bretonneux

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF TWO UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIERS OF THE WEST YORKSHIRE REGIMENT

1300-1400 hrs

Masnieres British Cemetery – Marcoing

THE BURIAL SERVICE FOR THE REMAINS OF AN UNKNOWN BRITISH SOLDIER OF THE FIRST WORLD WAR

26 July 2011

I believe all of these are in France. Are you thinking what I am thinking???

[towisuk]

Many thanks for your considered reply David, and explaining the way you have come by your information with which to compile your map, i take your point about not all discoveries being noted...
But since the authorities stopped the "Diggers" with authoritarian "red tape", there has been a marked fall in recovery of remains in the area, I think you can find my opinion on this on other forum topics...
The second point you raised "Sacred Ground", I don't consider taking extreme care, when developing areas of heavy fighting, so that any remains found, are treated with the respect due to the soldier who died fighting for that piece of land. If you like it is a "Debt of Honour" owed to those lost in The Great War....
And as I've just noticed, Chris's later posting is quite right.."slapdash" is one way to descibe it, "obscene ignorance" is mine...
regards
Tom

[Chris_Baker]

chrislock, on 28 August 2011 - 08:27 AM, said:

I believe all of these are in France. Are you thinking what I am thinking???

Chris, your post above is one of the most depressing I have read for a long time. The world quite rightly trumpets the identification of Aussies at Fromelles, yet here a few miles away we have potential evidence of several remains that are exposed, only to be looted and concreted over. When was the last time even an unidentified soldier was buried in the Ypres area, do you know?

[David Faulder]

What do you mean by "Ypres area"?  I would put forward:

• Unknown Soldier (1914-18) found at Zonnebeke, Belgium. Reburied in Tyne Cot Cemetery on 23 April 2009
• Unknown British Soldier (1914-18) found at Passchendaele, Belgium. Reburied in Tyne Cot Cemetery on 23 April 2009

Anyone propose more recent?  More importantly when were these two found?
David

[chrislock]

Hi Chris.

When I was on the Ypres Branch RBL Committee with Iain McHenry, we were always informed by the CWGC of all re internments/burials however since the date of when the Diggers became in-active, the notices seemed to have mostly stopped.
Maybe about 2009 and if that tallies up with the Diggers demise, well that may sum everything up! Of course a few burials have taken place but when I was speaking with Frans the other day,
he believes it was many more than that annualy from their finds alone. I certainly can remember attending many of these in the past but today it is a totally different story! I guess David posts what he believes is a lot and by the way, I attended both of these burials with our Standard Bearer and Standard along with a Branch delegation but I assure you, if you live over here you hear and see much more, I can assure everyone that since the Diggers became in-active, the burials have basically stopped!

Myself and others over here are all aware and have experienced soldiers remains when found, quickly covered back up, obliterated or simply ignored. That is a fact and if this upsets anyone, then so be it because that happens an awful lot in and around the town of Ypres today.

Only last week I noticed ribs, teeth and stuff laying beside the road after the Gas Company had put a pipe along the road. It is common and it happens. The question people should be asking is why?

Just my views and observations.

[David Faulder]

chrislock, on 28 August 2011 - 12:57 PM, said:

>><<
I guess David posts what he believes is a lot and by the way, I attended both of these burials with our Standard Bearer and Standard along with a Branch delegation but I assure you, if you live over here you hear and see much more, I can assure everyone that since the Diggers became in-active, the burials have basically stopped!
>><<

Chris

I was not making any judgement about the volume - just responding to Chris Baker's question in the previous post.

I would agree with the trend in this thread that the volume (compared to France, and possibly compared to previous decades) is suprisingly low.

David

[chrislock]

For sure and I agree with you!

The Salient in Belgium is more than capable unfortunately of still giving up vast quantities of the unrecovered fallen if the will is there but the figures speak for themselves. There are Diggers active on this forum who will be able to confirm how many they brought in from the cold yet today now that they are gone, well it's not rocket science what must be going on here in Belgium. When found, the majority of the fallen are ignored, destroyed forever or simply robbed and covered back over!

Remember, many road and building construction gangs are made up from other nationals who have no connection with the Great War here in Flanders whatsoever so I believe it would be wrong to suggest this is just a Mr Belgian citizen problem as we see it.

I really am not sure what the answer is here.......

[johnreed]

Chris

I hark back to one of my original posts back in November 2008 post #1938 in Todays Harvest with the Diggers in Boezinghe "I have only one suggestion it is that when planning permission is applied for by a develope, before a licence is granted a certificete signed by both the Archeologists and De Diggers that the area has no archelogical significance and that the area is clean of any ordnance or contamination. I would also suggest that any costs involved would be borne by the developer"

John

[towisuk]

Unfortunately John it looks as though the developers did not want to bear the costs of doing "the right thing", and persuaded the authorities to
make up rules and regulations which would put obstacles in the "Diggers" path that could not be overcome.
I think the "Powers that be", are as much to blame as the developers, it appears they are working hand in glove to ride roughshod over the debt it owes the men lying under the sod, having fought and died in defence of Belgium....

What price honour???

regards
Tom

[Bert Heyvaert]

(Hugh), on 25 August 2011 - 06:23 PM, said:

The case against this development is still alive, but the problem is as follows:-





The case before this court is that the house is 40% larger than the maximum allowed under planning law for that area, and a secondary building not yet built on the plot, is 50% larger than planning laws allow.

Hugh

Well, reality here in Belgium is that many people don't really bother these percentages. They figure out the amount of money they will be fined for this, and incorporate it in the overall costs of their house. This is called 'regularisatie'.
Once the house is built, this is the only thing that might happen. Or the inspection might just turn a blind eye. One year before local elections in Belgium, definitely don't expect any action to come from local officials in Ypres!

[Bert Heyvaert]

chrislock, on 28 August 2011 - 08:18 AM, said:

The fact is, since the Diggers were prevented from recovering the fallen, there have been very few reinternments here in the Salient area compared to when they were active.
Perhaps that speaks volumes.

Chris

The end of the diggers' activities came at the same time of the sharp rise of 'commercial' developer funded arcaheology by privat archeological companies in Flanders. For the last 3 years, I have been working for the largest of these companies.
In this new field, a group like the diggers, working without goverment supervision, without license and without a system of archaeological registration that was up to professional standarts was bound to disappear. Their dedication alone did not make up for the lack of the above. I have always believed that professionalisation could, given the exceptional circumstances they work in, have meant their survival, but quite frankly I don't want to re-open this discussion here.
What I do want to stress is the very valid point that Chris makes here. Last time I checked, developers have gone forward in Boezinge at no lesser pace. However, burials at Cement house have - well - pretty much stopped. This brings me to a very painfull conclusion that I'd rather keep to myself.

[tafski]

And you call your  self  a proffesional making statements like  this

tafski