26 replies to this topic

[Jim_Grundy]

Pals


I came across the following report in a Nottingham local newspaper of the burial of two men who were killed in the Zeebrugge raid on 23rd April 1918:

"DIED AT ZEEBRUGGE

“NOTTINGHAM HEROES BURIED AT BASFORD


“Two local heroes of the Zeebrugge operations on St. George’s Day were laid to rest on Monday in the quiet cemetery at Basford – George Smith (Royal Marines) and Ernest Charles Pool (Royal Naval Air Service).

Smith, who had served 15 years in the Marines, was a native of Hyson Green, his home being in Carver-street. He succumbed to wounds sustained in action.

Pool was the eldest son of Mr. and Mrs. T. Pool, of Milner-road, Sherwood. Twenty years of age, he was educated at High-pavement Secondary School, of whose staff his father is a well-known member. On leaving school he entered the employment of Messrs. Boots Ltd., and acquiring a knowledge of chemistry went into a scientific branch of the R.N.A.S. He was killed by a shell, and his parents received the following letter from his commanding officer:- “The officers and men are proud of the part played by your son in the now famous action against the Belgian coast and hope the knowledge that he volunteered for so gallant an action will be a source of comfort to you in your loss.”

“By desire of Mr. and Mrs. Pool there was no military honours at their son’s internment. A number of High-pavement teachers (including Miss A. Swann, Miss Tinsley, Miss G. Tinsley, Mr. H. Evans, Mr. C. Coggins, M. Jiordan) were present, as well as some of the scholars.

“Full military honours were bestowed on Smith’s internment. Among those present were the Mayor and Sheriff (Mr. J.G. Small and Mr. H. Offiler); the firing party came from the 2nd Battalion of the Notts. Volunteer Regiment; representatives of the Royal Marines followed the cortege; and the roads to the cemetery were lined by a sympathetic crowd. The coffin, borne on a gun-carriage, was covered with the Union Jack and four beautiful wreaths of lilies, narcissi, and pinks. The ceremony was conducted by the Rev. C.D. Gordon, vicar of St. Stephen’s Church, Bobbers Mill-road.”

(‘Nottinghamshire Weekly Express’, 3rd May 1918.)

It struck me as odd that Pool was still shown as a member of the Royal Naval Air Service after the creation of the Royal Air Force earlier in the month. But I attributed that to a journalistic error. However, a check with the Commonwealth War Graves Commission gave the following result:

F/12787 Air Mechanic 1st Class Ernest Charles Pool, Royal Naval Air Service, H.M.S. "President II", died 23rd April 1918. Aged 20. Son of Thomas and Edith Marian Pool, of 13, Milner Rd., Sherwood, Nottingham. Buried Nottingham (New Basford) Cemetery.

(For information, Smith's details are: PLY/11530 Private George Charles Smith, (RMR./B/965). 4th R.M. Bn. H.M.S. "Vindictive", died 23rd April 1918. Aged 33. Son of Mrs. Rebecca Smith, of 18, Carver St., Hyson Green, Nottingham, and the late John Smith. Buried Nottingham (New Basford) Cemetery).

My question is this, if the R.N.A.S. and Royal Flying Corps had merged to form the Royal Air Force on 1st April 1918, why is an individual still shown as a member of one of the defunct organisations? Was it simply that it was too early after the establishment of the R.A.F. to ascribe a new nomenclature to each and every sub-unit and individual? That is as far as my thinking goes - but does anyone have a better idea?


Jim

[Dolphin]

Jim

AMI E C Poll (his name in Airmen Died) and AMI C A Wilkinson were both killed on HMS Iris during the Zeebrugge Raid, as were other RAF men, Lt Col F A Brock and MechII J Rouse, who were on other ships.  I'd say that the newspaper made a mistake with respect to the service of the men as the RAF was still very new at the time, and the men, and their relations, probably still thought of themselves as being RNAS, rather than members of the new organisation.  

The CWGC may have followed the data supplied by AMI Poll's unit, which may have chosen to ignore the RAF, especially as he was killed in a sea action.

Regards

Gareth

[Jim_Grundy]

I think that's pretty much the working definition of a 'fast reply'! Much appreciated, Gareth.

[Siege Gunner]

The RNAS men were presumably members of Brock's smoke and flamethrower teams from the RNAS research establishment at Stratford, who, I believe, went into 'purdah' along with the rest of the specialist personnel training for the raid before the formal creation of the RAF on 1 April, so they may well have escaped 're-branding' in terms of uniform, etc, and their own perception of their identity, although at the administrative level their records were no doubt updated in the normal way.

[ianw]

Yes, I think this may well be an "indulgence" on behalf of all concerned including the CWGC to the fact that he was killed during a naval action. I have no doubt that these airmen involved in the operation still thought of themselves as RNAS at this moment in time - might they also have worn RNAS uniforms?

It's rather nice that officialdom can sometimes exercise some discretion to do what is morally right rather than sticking to the letter of the regulations.

Perhaps the "new kid on the block" RAF thought it would be impertinent to the senior service to "claim" the men
as RAF given the nature of the operation.

[centurion]

There must have been some RNAS men who didn't transfer into the RAF because their skills etc didn't fit the latter (and presumably at some stage merged back into the main body of the RN). Flamethrower men might fit this bill. Was there a rump RNAS maintained to hold these men until appropriate repostings were made?

[Siege Gunner]

ianw, on 22 January 2011 - 10:49 AM, said:

I have no doubt that these airmen involved in the operation still thought of themselves as RNAS at this moment in time - might they also have worn RNAS uniforms?

I don't know about the RNAS ORs, but there has certainly been discussion of what Brock was wearing  -  as part of Johan's (Regulus1) research into the identity of a dead officer photographed on the Mole after the Raid.  If I remember correctly, Brock was wearing a mixture of uniform items, with various badges attached. The RNAS technical specialists may well have been wearing protective overalls.

[Jim_Grundy]

Siege Gunner, on 22 January 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:

The RNAS men were presumably members of Brock's smoke and flamethrower teams from the RNAS research establishment at Stratford,

That certainly fits with the story that Pool, "entered the employment of Messrs. Boots Ltd., and acquiring a knowledge of chemistry went into a scientific branch of the R.N.A.S."

Thanks for that.

[domwalsh]

The 36 men who served with Brock on Vindictive, Iris and Daffodil were definitely RNAS, not RAF (as were the RNAS men who served on the support vessels who mainy handled smokescreens). They formed part of the landing parties that attacked the mole at Zeebrugge, mainly handling flamethrowers. All were from the experimental station at Stratford. Have a look on the forum for previous threads on this. If you'd like to PM I can forward you a copy of a report on their activities by a member.
Thanks for reproducing the cutting. Did it have photos of either casualty?
Dom

[Jim_Grundy]

domwalsh, on 23 January 2011 - 09:53 AM, said:

Thanks for reproducing the cutting. Did it have photos of either casualty?

Unfortunately, not Dom. I will be visiting Basford Cemetery, hopefully, in the next week or so to take some photographs of their graves.  Some photographs might have appeared in other Nottingham 'papers of the time and I'll be looking out for them.

Thanks for the offer of sharing the report on the RNAS's role at Zeebrugge. I'll send you a message.

Cheers,


Jim

[David Underdown]

"Diary of night bomber pilot in World War I" about a pilot in 7 Naval/207 Squadron shows that many men continued to wear their old uniforms/cap badges for some time after 1 April 1918 (and continued to think of themselves as RNAS/RFC).

[horatio2]

Siege Gunner, on 22 January 2011 - 10:44 AM, said:

The RNAS men were presumably members of Brock's smoke and flamethrower teams from the RNAS research establishment at Stratford, who, I believe, went into 'purdah' along with the rest of the specialist personnel training for the raid before the formal creation of the RAF on 1 April, so they may well have escaped 're-branding' in terms of uniform, etc, and their own perception of their identity, although at the administrative level their records were no doubt updated in the normal way.

It would appear that all the RNAS men at Stratford (including those at Zeebrugge under Brock) did indeed avoid transfer to the RAF. On 1 April 1918 their pay/admin office shifted from PRESIDENT II to PRESIDENT V and they continued to serve at Stratford in the Naval Service.  Not so poor old Brock, who had the indignity of becoming a Major (Temp Lieutenant Colonel) in the RAF Administrative Branch on 1 April 1918 [Air Force List]. Notwithstanding, most sources continued to refer to him as "Wing Commander RNAS".

[MichaelBully]

Been following the thread with interest, have started researching this chap, Ltn Claude Vincent Ernest Hawkings from HMS Iris who also died at Zeebrugge, 23rd April 1918. Ltn. Hawkings is honoured on the war memorial at St. Andrews Church, Waterloo Street, Hove.

http://www.cwgc.org/...asualty=2959985

Can anyone recommend any books on the Zeebrugge Raid?  Thanks

[Dolphin]

MichaelBully, on 01 February 2011 - 07:50 PM, said:

Can anyone recommend any books on the Zeebrugge Raid?  Thanks

Michael

A very good recent account is The Zeebrugge Raid 1918 by Paul Kendall, ISBN 978 0 7524 5332 3.

Regards

Gareth

[MichaelBully]

That's great Gareth, thanks. Am going up to London today so will search the bookshops. Regards. Michael

Dolphin, on 01 February 2011 - 09:08 PM, said:

Michael

A very good recent account is The Zeebrugge Raid 1918 by Paul Kendall, ISBN 978 0 7524 5332 3.

Regards

Gareth

[Jim_Grundy]

Frustrating search in New Basford Cemetery. Both Smith and Pool must have family headstones and I'll need more time than was available to look at all the graves next time.

[domwalsh]

There is a photo of Hawkings in Captain Carpenter VC's book on the raid. All the books are usually available on ebay.
Hawkings get lots of mentions as his death was every bit as gallant as that of George Bradford VC. Hawkings was merely MID which I always thought was rough justice.
Dom

[MichaelBully]

Thanks Dom. Will seek this book out. I know that there is a surviving relative of  Claude Hawkings in Hove. Next time I do a talk at St. Andrews about the Great War dead connected to the church, will ensure that Ltn. Hawkings is featured.

Ltn Hawkings is also remembered on Hove Roll of Honour

HAWKINGS

Claude Ernest Vincent

Lieutenant Royal Navy. HMS "Erin" Attached to HMS "Iris" for the Zeebrugge Raid. Killed in action during the assault on the mole 23 April 1918. Aged 22. Son of Percival & Leanore Hawkings of 21, Adelaide Crescent, Hove. Served on HMS "Orion" during the Battle of Jutland, Commemorated on The Zeebrugge Memorial, Belgium


http://www.roll-of-h...x/Hove-H-L.html

Regards ,
Michael Bully

[nils d]

There seems to be a number of men from these raids that where buried back in Blighty.
lve noticed a few in the registers.How many came back dead or dying?
l imagine there was not time to do a burial at sea which the Navy were keen on , even in the Falklands.

[MichaelBully]

Just noticed that there is a Merseyside connection to the Zeebrugee 1918  raid.

http://www.merseytra...id=1702&catid=1

[Siege Gunner]

nils d, on 11 February 2011 - 06:14 PM, said:

There seems to be a number of men from these raids that where buried back in Blighty.

With the exception of a small number who are now buried in Zeebrugge Churchyard cemetery, all the men killed on the Mole and those who died aboard Vindictive, Iris and Daffodil were recovered to the UK.  Some were buried in the Zeebrugge plot at St James' cemetery in Dover, and the others were returned to their NoK for burial.  One, Captain Henry Halahan RN, was buried at sea off the South Goodwins on 28 April.

[nils d]

Siege Gunner, on 12 February 2011 - 08:22 PM, said:

With the exception of a small number who are now buried in Zeebrugge Churchyard cemetery, all the men killed on the Mole and those who died aboard Vindictive, Iris and Daffodil were recovered to the UK.  Some were buried in the Zeebrugge plot at St James' cemetery in Dover, and the others were returned to their NoK for burial.  One, Captain Henry Halahan RN, was buried at sea off the South Goodwins on 28 April.

thanks for that SG lwas just wondering. lts surprising that for all those losses there was only one burial at sea

[The Owlman]

Was checking the forums for info when I saw this posting. With reference to the earlier posts about RNAS men being left out of the transfer to the RAF. I have just picked up a pair of medals to an RNAS chap called Oxenbury (a.mechanic then a.frame fitter). Fantastic find as he appears also to have been on the Zeebrugge raid.
From his service docs he was definitely RNAS until discharge in 1919. He was based at Stratford under President I(also when training at C Palace), left there on April 1 1918 and was "wounded during operations off the Belgian Coast 23/4/18". Was he with the flamethrower units? He was then based at Shalford(near Guildford?)under President V, finishing the war at an experimental base at Dover.

Hope this helps with the topic
Owlman

[bob lembke]

Just noticed the thread.

There seemed to have been a dramatic incident during the raid and the assault on the mole, in which a British officer and a German petty officer from one of the destroyers on the other side of the mole engaged in a cutlass duel, the British officer and perhaps the petty officer being killed in the process. I don't remember the details; I read it perhaps three years ago. Does that ring a bell? Could that have been Brock? I think that the flame-thrower men were only armed with their flame-throwers (a really frightful design, certainly from an ergonomic point of view) and cutlasses. (I am interested in this especially as my father was a flame-thrower operator in the Great War. I have been asked if I would write a description about an especially dramatic event in his war for submission to Stand To!.)

Bob Lembke

[MichaelBully]

Should just add, here is the Commonwealth War Graves Commission link to the Zeebrugge Memorial

Ltn Claude Hawkings of the HMS Iris, who I am researching is honoured, on the Zeebrugge Memorial. A memorial plaque was also placed on St. Andrews Church, Waterloo Street, Hove by his family.


http://www.cwgc.org/...=2104650&mode=1

nils d, on 11 April 2011 - 10:40 AM, said:

thanks for that SG lwas just wondering. lts surprising that for all those losses there was only one burial at sea