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Leonard McCarty, RFC, Egypt 1919-1920


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#26 mccartyxb

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 12:36 PM

QUOTE (Dolphin @ Oct 31 2007, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bernard

The DH 4/DH 9 File by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page (ISBN 0 85130 274 2) is a listing of every DH 4, DH 9 and DH 9A built, with a very brief history of nearly all of them, plus lots more.

It was published by Air-Britain (Historians) Ltd in 1999.  At the time of publication, the email address for sales was: mike@absales.demon.co.uk.

Good luck

Gareth


Gareth,

Thank you! There was a copy on amazon - duly purchased! smile.gif

QUOTE (Dolphin @ Oct 31 2007, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bernard

The DH 4/DH 9 File by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page (ISBN 0 85130 274 2) is a listing of every DH 4, DH 9 and DH 9A built, with a very brief history of nearly all of them, plus lots more.

It was published by Air-Britain (Historians) Ltd in 1999.  At the time of publication, the email address for sales was: mike@absales.demon.co.uk.

Good luck

Gareth


Gareth,

Thank you! There was a copy on amazon - duly purchased! smile.gif

#27 mccartyxb

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Posted 31 October 2007 - 01:52 PM

QUOTE (Dolphin @ Oct 31 2007, 12:45 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bernard

The DH 4/DH 9 File by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page (ISBN 0 85130 274 2) is a listing of every DH 4, DH 9 and DH 9A built, with a very brief history of nearly all of them, plus lots more.

It was published by Air-Britain (Historians) Ltd in 1999.  At the time of publication, the email address for sales was: mike@absales.demon.co.uk.

Good luck

Gareth


Hi Gareth,

I found a copy on amazon - duly ordered!

Many thanks smile.gif

#28 jamie 1978

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Posted 01 November 2007 - 09:23 PM

Did you say you had a photo of him in uniform? It may give a clue as to when he joined up. If your able to scan a pic someone may have an idea of uniform period.


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#29 mccartyxb

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:53 PM

QUOTE (jamie 1978 @ Nov 1 2007, 10:23 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Did you say you had a photo of him in uniform? It may give a clue as to when he joined up. If your able to scan a pic someone may have an idea of uniform period.
jamie


Hi Jamie,

I'm away until Sunday but I'll post some more pictures then.

Cheers,
Bernard.

#30 mccartyxb

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 04:25 PM

Dear all, after a very long wait (I had to abandon the search for work related reasons) I've decided to try and reopen the file on my grandfather, as it were. Please find attached some more pictures of him and the planes in North Africa, circa 1919/1920. If anyone has any knowledge as to what squadron and, indeed, what they were doing there I would be very grateful indeed if you could post something up here.

Many thanks,
Bernard.

A couple more:

Attached Files



#31 Verrico2009

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 06:25 PM

On the question of why the photos were on postcards, I think it was popular and easy.  Last summer, I joined a behind-the-scenes tour at the National Media Museum and was surprised to find just how early the photographic postcard had been introduced: packs were available to use at home.  I had envisaged that my family's ones were done in a studio but realised that they were probably done at home by my grandfather or my uncle, both keen photographers.  

I found a website (http://www.emotionsc...ofpostcards.htm) which gives this information:-

"In 1906 the fashionable Photo and Lithographed cards made Eastman Kodak enter the marketplace by making an affordable camera called the "Folding Pocket Camera".  The public was now able to take black and white photographs and have them printed right onto postcard backs.  More cameras of this type entered the market which then brought on the Real Photo Postcard era.  The negatives were the same size of the postcard and the photographer had a small metal tool that allowed them to write directly onto the image."

Perhaps the men took their own cameras to war with them?

The site seems to indicate it was a fashion which passed, but I've got one dated to the 1920s and I know the others (of my mother in her late teens/early 20s) will be shortly before WW2.

#32 Dolphin

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Posted 22 January 2010 - 08:26 PM

Bernard

The aeroplane photographs are (in descending order): an RE8 (there would have been a letter prefix to the '5055' serial, but it probably wasn't applied after the aeroplane was re-painted); DH9s (if the serial on the tail of the nearest aircraft can be read on the original, its history should be fairly easy to research), and 'W' is a DH9A.

I hope that this is useful.

Gareth



#33 mccartyxb

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 05:54 PM

Some progress at last!

Digging around I now know that Len was an LAC, which I believe was was a Leading Aircraft's Man, in 47 Squadron and his service number was either 40412 or 40472. It also appears that his surname may well have been McCarthy during his service years, ie with an 'h' which he dropped in later life. He was billeted at Saloum (we have a photo of his barracks and bed) near to Helwan Aerodrome, later RAF Helwan (nowadays Helwan Martial Airport).

I have unearthed even more photographs - he was quite a prodigious photographer for a mechanic! - including a close quarters photograph of Lord Milner being greeted by Commodore Groves(?) on landing at Helwan and many more pictures of DH9as after less than perfect landings . Many of these new photos have notes on the back which I shall try to piece into some kind of a timeline.

I'm still on the lookout for information regarding the activities of the RAF in Egypt, particularly in the period 1918 - 1921. I came across this wonderful piece by Maj Michael J. Petersen called Wood, Fabric, and Wire: Insights from the Biplanes Era, 1919-1936 Forward which may be of interest to anyone else also looking into the same time period.

Thanks again to everyone who has replied to this thread - your help has been invaluable!

#34 mickdavis

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 08:19 PM

The RE8 would have been B5055. That machine saw service with 14 Sqn in Palestine and then passed to the reformed 208 Sqn at Ismailia, by March until, at least, June 1920. The DH9s can be found in the AB book.
An earlier post showed HP O/400 F318. That was built by the Birmingham Carriage Co and delivered to 14 AAP at Didsbury, late March 1919. It was initially allotted to the Communications Wing at Kenley. It was then allotted to 58 Sqn at Heliopolis and left England on 21 June 1919; travelling via Paris, Rome, Athens, Suda Bay (Crete) and Sollum (on the Egypt/Libya border). It arrived at Heliopolis on 26 June. I have a note that TE Lawrence was a passenger.
58 Sqn began to receive Vickers Vimys, as replacements, from July 1919 and disbanded on 1 February 1920 - it was re-designated 70 Sqn.

#35 mccartyxb

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Posted 17 February 2010 - 09:50 PM

QUOTE (mickdavis @ Feb 17 2010, 08:19 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
The RE8 would have been B5055. That machine saw service with 14 Sqn in Palestine and then passed to the reformed 208 Sqn at Ismailia, by March until, at least, June 1920. The DH9s can be found in the AB book.
An earlier post showed HP O/400 F318. That was built by the Birmingham Carriage Co and delivered to 14 AAP at Didsbury, late March 1919. It was initially allotted to the Communications Wing at Kenley. It was then allotted to 58 Sqn at Heliopolis and left England on 21 June 1919; travelling via Paris, Rome, Athens, Suda Bay (Crete) and Sollum (on the Egypt/Libya border). It arrived at Heliopolis on 26 June. I have a note that TE Lawrence was a passenger.
58 Sqn began to receive Vickers Vimys, as replacements, from July 1919 and disbanded on 1 February 1920 - it was re-designated 70 Sqn.


Hi Mick,

Many thanks for your reply. Just to be clear, do you know whether TE Lawrence arrived in F318 at the same time as Lord Milner when he started his mission there? I ask this as my grandfather was there at the time and photographed the arrival of Lord Milner - it would be quite amazing to think he saw TE Lawrence as well.

Regards,
Bernard.

#36 domsim

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 09:43 AM

Bernard

Try this link for Lawrence's eventful flight to Egypt-bit of a discrepancy with the aircraft numbers though.

Lawrence to Egypt

Cheers
Dominic biggrin.gif

#37 Trevor Henshaw

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 04:40 PM

Bernard,

This is a bit more about the tail-end of F318's flight out to Egypt - when Lawrence joined it to complete his journey.  It's taken from an article I've written for the Cross and Cockade Journal.  You need to imagine about half a dozen 58 Squadron Handley Pages and their crews, along with Lawrence who had travelled out with them from France, sitting more or less trapped at Suda Bay in northern Crete, in blistering heat, working hard on their tired and exhausted machines, most of the men sick with fever as well, staring at a range of snow capped peaks to the south, standing between them and their next specified airfield in Egypt, but quite unreachable because of the mountains...  They had been at Suda about 9 days, trying to come up with a solution.  They had also been patiently waiting for an Italian flying boat to accompany them on the sea crossing.  The latter had finally turned up on the 24th.  Now read on...  

The day after the flying boat's arrival, however, saw a very special Handley Page limp into Suda Bay - not from 58 Squadron but instead HP F318 of the 86th (Communications) Wing, which was making a dramatic and ultimately record breaking run from England to Cairo with very important Foreign Office officials on board.  Remarkably, it had left Lympne with its VIP passengers only four days earlier.  This blistering journey had taken its toll on the machine, and halfway to Crete the port propeller had burst, putting considerable strain on the engine, requiring throttling back.  They had reached Suda Bay only by the smallest of margins.

The faulty engine was overhauled by the 58 Squadron mechanics, and then a good propeller, taken from a 58 Squadron machine, replaced its damaged one, Lawrence helping to do this.   And Henderson then offered the flying boat, the machine his squadron had so patiently waited for, to accompany F318 to the Egyptian coast.  Lawrence would also join the diplomats, and so that is how he reached North Africa and Cairo.

On the 26th the repaired F318 took off, taking three attempts to get into the air.  They had brought news that petrol and oil was available at El Sollum, an airfield on the border of Egypt and Libya, and it was for here that F318 headed that day, and to which 58 Squadron now planned to go, for it was within range of their machines.  The flying boat sent with the diplomats would eventually return, it was hoped.

The last stages of Handley Page F318’s epic trip to Cairo are worth recording: quite unable to fly over the Cretian mountains the pilot, Lt Yates, flew south around the coast and then took a dead reckoning across open sea on his destination.  Four hours later they touched down, right on target.  Though now showing considerable signs of stress, it was decided to press on to Heliopolis that same day – a flight of six hours across 500 miles desert, but somehow it was managed, and the machine landed some hours after sunset, on June 26th 1919.  HP F318 had made the journey in just five days, with a flying time of 36 hours - a truly remarkable time for the journey, and given the fate of so many others making the flight that summer, no doubt involving much good fortune.

The whole trip of 58 Squadron out to Egypt is a fantastic story, to be honest.

Regards,

Trevor



#38 mccartyxb

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 05:14 PM

QUOTE (Trevor Henshaw @ Feb 21 2010, 04:40 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bernard,

This is a bit more about the tail-end of F318's flight out to Egypt - when Lawrence joined it to complete his journey.  It's taken from an article I've written for the Cross and Cockade Journal.  You need to imagine about half a dozen 58 Squadron Handley Pages and their crews, along with Lawrence who had travelled out with them from France, sitting more or less trapped at Suda Bay in northern Crete, in blistering heat, working hard on their tired and exhausted machines, most of the men sick with fever as well, staring at a range of snow capped peaks to the south, standing between them and their next specified airfield in Egypt, but quite unreachable because of the mountains...  They had been at Suda about 9 days, trying to come up with a solution.  They had also been patiently waiting for an Italian flying boat to accompany them on the sea crossing.  The latter had finally turned up on the 24th.  Now read on...  

The day after the flying boat's arrival, however, saw a very special Handley Page limp into Suda Bay - not from 58 Squadron but instead HP F318 of the 86th (Communications) Wing, which was making a dramatic and ultimately record breaking run from England to Cairo with very important Foreign Office officials on board.  Remarkably, it had left Lympne with its VIP passengers only four days earlier.  This blistering journey had taken its toll on the machine, and halfway to Crete the port propeller had burst, putting considerable strain on the engine, requiring throttling back.  They had reached Suda Bay only by the smallest of margins.

The faulty engine was overhauled by the 58 Squadron mechanics, and then a good propeller, taken from a 58 Squadron machine, replaced its damaged one, Lawrence helping to do this.   And Henderson then offered the flying boat, the machine his squadron had so patiently waited for, to accompany F318 to the Egyptian coast.  Lawrence would also join the diplomats, and so that is how he reached North Africa and Cairo.

On the 26th the repaired F318 took off, taking three attempts to get into the air.  They had brought news that petrol and oil was available at El Sollum, an airfield on the border of Egypt and Libya, and it was for here that F318 headed that day, and to which 58 Squadron now planned to go, for it was within range of their machines.  The flying boat sent with the diplomats would eventually return, it was hoped.

The last stages of Handley Page F318’s epic trip to Cairo are worth recording: quite unable to fly over the Cretian mountains the pilot, Lt Yates, flew south around the coast and then took a dead reckoning across open sea on his destination.  Four hours later they touched down, right on target.  Though now showing considerable signs of stress, it was decided to press on to Heliopolis that same day – a flight of six hours across 500 miles desert, but somehow it was managed, and the machine landed some hours after sunset, on June 26th 1919.  HP F318 had made the journey in just five days, with a flying time of 36 hours - a truly remarkable time for the journey, and given the fate of so many others making the flight that summer, no doubt involving much good fortune.

The whole trip of 58 Squadron out to Egypt is a fantastic story, to be honest.

Regards,

Trevor


Trevor,

Absolutely astounding! Thank you.

Do you know whether Lord Milner was one of the "important Foreign Office officials" you mentioned? My grandfather (47 Squadron, Helwan/Saloum, Cairo) has some pictures of him by F318 being greeted by Commodore Groves (I think, will check later...) when he arrived to start his mission.

Which issue(s) of the Cross and Cockade was your article in? I'd love to obtain a copy.

Many thanks again, extremely appreciated.

QUOTE (domsim @ Feb 19 2010, 09:43 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Bernard

Try this link for Lawrence's eventful flight to Egypt-bit of a discrepancy with the aircraft numbers though.

Lawrence to Egypt

Cheers
Dominic biggrin.gif


Fascinating! Thank you!

#39 Trevor Henshaw

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Posted 23 February 2010 - 12:47 PM

Hi Bernard, Glad you found it interesting.  I don't exactly recall who was on F318, though I'm sure there are other sources which could come up with the names.  Circumstantially you would have to go with Lord Milner - there are too many tie-ups!  I got the details of events from several sources, including some coming entirely from the Lawrence slant - for example, Lawrence wrote up his stay at Suda and on-bound flight to Cairo as an essay when later with the Tank Corps.  He embellished a few details - for example he said they transferred a propellor from the Italian Flying boat onto the HP - which I seriously don't think happened.  They had quite a selection of HP props to hand!  I can't recall if I found a copy of this little essay - maybe just a discussion of it - but perhaps a book of Lawrence's letters etc might yield something.

The article on 58 Squadron's journey is written but not yet delivered to C&C as I recently came across a marvellous new album of images of the trip and am currently, er, negotiating to use some of the images.  To give you a flavour of what was going on in mid 1919 the RAF decided to fly three squadrons of Handley Pages out to Egypt to essentially engage in policing.  They were 58, 214 and 216 Squadorns.  58 Squadron went first and effectively trail-blazed a route across 2,500 miles.  52 aircraft in the end were despatched - 26 of which were left bent, damaged or wrecked across France, Italy, the Med and the Adriatic.  Plus they had nearly killed Lawrence of Arabia.  Caused quite a stink at the time!  

Regards,

Trevor

#40 mccartyxb

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Posted 24 February 2010 - 02:03 PM

QUOTE (Trevor Henshaw @ Feb 23 2010, 12:47 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi Bernard, Glad you found it interesting.  I don't exactly recall who was on F318, though I'm sure there are other sources which could come up with the names.  Circumstantially you would have to go with Lord Milner - there are too many tie-ups!  I got the details of events from several sources, including some coming entirely from the Lawrence slant - for example, Lawrence wrote up his stay at Suda and on-bound flight to Cairo as an essay when later with the Tank Corps.  He embellished a few details - for example he said they transferred a propellor from the Italian Flying boat onto the HP - which I seriously don't think happened.  They had quite a selection of HP props to hand!  I can't recall if I found a copy of this little essay - maybe just a discussion of it - but perhaps a book of Lawrence's letters etc might yield something.

The article on 58 Squadron's journey is written but not yet delivered to C&C as I recently came across a marvellous new album of images of the trip and am currently, er, negotiating to use some of the images.  To give you a flavour of what was going on in mid 1919 the RAF decided to fly three squadrons of Handley Pages out to Egypt to essentially engage in policing.  They were 58, 214 and 216 Squadorns.  58 Squadron went first and effectively trail-blazed a route across 2,500 miles.  52 aircraft in the end were despatched - 26 of which were left bent, damaged or wrecked across France, Italy, the Med and the Adriatic.  Plus they had nearly killed Lawrence of Arabia.  Caused quite a stink at the time!  

Regards,

Trevor


Many thanks (again!) Trevor - this is amazing stuff. I shall be over at my father's at the weekend so I will have a chance to look through my grandfather's "archive" try and tie up some of these leads.

#41 Cretanmichael

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Posted 26 January 2012 - 07:40 AM

Hello Trevor

I am very interested in your post in relation to the flight from Lille to Egypt in 1919. I am doing some research on behalf of the family of one of the pilots, GE Newton, on that flight. We were wondering what new album of images you had come accross.  GE Newton was a keen photographer and we are in possession of some fine photos and a daily log of the flight.

I look forward to hearing from you


Michael

View Postmccartyxb, on 24 February 2010 - 02:03 PM, said:

QUOTE (Trevor Henshaw @ Feb 23 2010, 12:47 PM) Hi Bernard, Glad you found it interesting.  I don't exactly recall who was on F318, though I'm sure there are other sources which could come up with the names.  Circumstantially you would have to go with Lord Milner - there are too many tie-ups!  I got the details of events from several sources, including some coming entirely from the Lawrence slant - for example, Lawrence wrote up his stay at Suda and on-bound flight to Cairo as an essay when later with the Tank Corps.  He embellished a few details - for example he said they transferred a propellor from the Italian Flying boat onto the HP - which I seriously don't think happened.  They had quite a selection of HP props to hand!  I can't recall if I found a copy of this little essay - maybe just a discussion of it - but perhaps a book of Lawrence's letters etc might yield something.

The article on 58 Squadron's journey is written but not yet delivered to C&C as I recently came across a marvellous new album of images of the trip and am currently, er, negotiating to use some of the images.  To give you a flavour of what was going on in mid 1919 the RAF decided to fly three squadrons of Handley Pages out to Egypt to essentially engage in policing.  They were 58, 214 and 216 Squadorns.  58 Squadron went first and effectively trail-blazed a route across 2,500 miles.  52 aircraft in the end were despatched - 26 of which were left bent, damaged or wrecked across France, Italy, the Med and the Adriatic.  Plus they had nearly killed Lawrence of Arabia.  Caused quite a stink at the time!  

Regards,

Trevor

Many thanks (again!) Trevor - this is amazing stuff. I shall be over at my father's at the weekend so I will have a chance to look through my grandfather's "archive" try and tie up some of these leads.