38 replies to this topic

[MikB]

Thunderbox, on 28 November 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Standard version of the Lee Enfield cavalry carbine:





I've never seen any photographic evidence of WW1 carbine use.

I imagine that even pre-war, any cavalry or yeomanry unit in an active operational environment with a risk of actual combat (i.e. North-West Frontier, Middle East, etc) would have switched to a more effective MLE.

The school CCF I was in still had half-a-dozen or so of these - or something very like them -  in the mid-1960s. They were issued to boys small for their age who would find the No.4 difficult. As far as I remember, they could chamber drill cartridges in Weapon Training, and fire blanks on Field Days like the No.4s, but (like all except about 10 of the No.4s) were never fired live. I may stand corrected on that, though.

Regards,
MikB

[TonyE]

We had a number of .303 Martini-Enfield artillery carbines in the school armoury that were still there when I left in 1963. They were stamped "NOT FOR BALL" on the Knox form but I fired one on several occassions without harm. They were in a very well worn condition with shot out bores but they worked.

It would have been very nice to have had some LE carbines though - if that was indeed what you had.

Regards
TonyE

[MikB]

TonyE, on 31 December 2011 - 12:47 PM, said:

We had a number of .303 Martini-Enfield artillery carbines in the school armoury that were still there when I left in 1963. They were stamped "NOT FOR BALL" on the Knox form but I fired one on several occassions without harm. They were in a very well worn condition with shot out bores but they worked.

It would have been very nice to have had some LE carbines though - if that was indeed what you had.

Regards
TonyE

They certainly weren't Martinis - I remember the flat on the bolt handle, and the rotating cover for the bolt shank rather intrigued my young mind. I think someone at school once described them as Thorneycrofts, but having looked those up, they were certainly wrong.

Regards,
MikB

[TonyE]

No, I think you are right Mik, your description fits the L-E carbine to a "T".

O that they had been Thornycrofts though!

Happy New Year,
TonyE

[Stoppage Drill]

TonyE, on 29 November 2011 - 04:12 PM, said:

Sequence was:

.577 inch Snider: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery (plus 2 band serjeant's rifle and Naval rifle)
.450 inch Martini Henry: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery
.303 inch Lee Metford: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery
.303 inch Lee Enfield: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery (at least I assume the Artillery carried carbines)
.303 inch SMLE: All arms

There were also differences between the artillery and cavalry carbines.

And of course there were also the .303 inch Martini Metford and Martini Enfield rifles and carbines for the Volunteers and Territorial Force.

Regards
TonyE

P14 ? After all, Julian Hatcher called it the best rifle used in the Great War, and he should know !

[Stoppage Drill]

TonyE, on 31 December 2011 - 12:47 PM, said:

We had a number of .303 Martini-Enfield artillery carbines in the school armoury that were still there when I left in 1963. They were stamped "NOT FOR BALL" on the Knox form but I fired one on several occassions without harm. They were in a very well worn condition with shot out bores but they worked.

It would have been very nice to have had some LE carbines though - if that was indeed what you had.

Regards
TonyE

The only guns I see which have a "Not for Ball" marking are old shotguns. Your Martini-Enfields weren't bored out for .410 shot cartridges were they ?

I have a 1905 Citadel Martini Enfield. Quite a few of these turned up during Op MUSKETEER in 1956, as did 14 bore Greener GP (Martini action) "Gaffer Guns" as isued to the Egyptian Police in the 20's and 30's

[TonyE]

Stoppage Drill, on 31 December 2011 - 08:36 PM, said:

P14 ? After all, Julian Hatcher called it the best rifle used in the Great War, and he should know !

I was replying to the original post that talked about the sequence of British rifles up to the SMLE, which was adopted in 1902. I did not go past that point to include the Pattern '14 or the No.4.

In any case, the P.'14 was never adopted as a mainstream British infantry weapon. Deliveries from America were placed straight to store in WWI except for a few used for training and some used with the (F) sight for snipers. They were used as an emergency rifle after Dunkirk but were never a front line weapon.

I agree with Hatcher that it is a very fine rifle, but as I say, it was not actualy really used in the Great War. I own and shoot one today, but I do not think anyone can dispute that the SMLE proved itself the best battle rifle in WWI.

Regards
TonyE

[Ianander]

The few accounts I have read of troops arriving on the Western Front from the far flung corners of the Empire appear to include accounts of rearming and reequipping upon arrival and almost all British and Commonwealth troops on the Western Front by mid 1916 appear to have reequipped SMLEs, so any service would most likely be restricted to 1914/15 and I have never seen any evidence of their use.


Hello Chris , when the 2nd Battalion the Black Watch disembarked on October 12th at Marseilles they were rearmed with new rifles because the weapons they brought from India did not take the latest mark of ammunition.
       After all the long training in peace to teach men to know and trust their rifles, it was a blow to be parted from their tried weapons on the eve of going into action, but it could not be helped.  ( taken from A History of the Black Watch by A.G Wauchope)

Ian

[TonyE]

Ianander, on 31 December 2011 - 10:57 PM, said:

The few accounts I have read of troops arriving on the Western Front from the far flung corners of the Empire appear to include accounts of rearming and reequipping upon arrival and almost all British and Commonwealth troops on the Western Front by mid 1916 appear to have reequipped SMLEs, so any service would most likely be restricted to 1914/15 and I have never seen any evidence of their use.


Hello Chris , when the 2nd Battalion the Black Watch disembarked on October 12th at Marseilles they were rearmed with new rifles because the weapons they brought from India did not take the latest mark of ammunition.
       After all the long training in peace to teach men to know and trust their rifles, it was a blow to be parted from their tried weapons on the eve of going into action, but it could not be helped.  ( taken from A History of the Black Watch by A.G Wauchope)

Ian

If your first point is referring to Pattern '14 rifles then I am afraid that your timeline is some way out. The first P.'14 rifles were not accepted by British inspectors in America until March 1916 and were not checked and inspected in the Uk until April. Volume shipments did not begin the middle of the year and by then it had been decided that only one type of rifle, the SMLE, would serve with the BEF and the P.'14s would be placed in store. Some small numbers were used for training however and 100,000 were sent to India to replace SMLEs sent to the UK in 1914.

Regards and happy New Year
TonyE

[shippingsteel]

Happy New Year Mr E. and the compliments of the season to your good self.!
I think the last poster was referring to the LEC which this thread was previously discussing.

Cheers, S>S

[TonyE]

Ah, you are probably right S>S. I was not sure, but coming so soon after the P.'14 posts I thought it was referring to them.

Anyway, happy New Year to you and collectors of pointy things everywhere!

Cheers
tonyE

[TonyE]

Stoppage Drill, on 31 December 2011 - 08:42 PM, said:

The only guns I see which have a "Not for Ball" marking are old shotguns. Your Martini-Enfields weren't bored out for .410 shot cartridges were they ?

I have a 1905 Citadel Martini Enfield. Quite a few of these turned up during Op MUSKETEER in 1956, as did 14 bore Greener GP (Martini action) "Gaffer Guns" as isued to the Egyptian Police in the 20's and 30's

No, they were all still in .303 inch calibre. The "NOT FOR BALL" marking was often placed on rifles that had been relegated to training and blank firing only.

Regards
TonyE

[4thGordons]

I would be very suprised indeed to learn that that Ianander's post referred to the 2nd Black Watch having LEC.
I think it was merely a reference (quoting my observation) to battalions arriving from stations in the empire reequipping upon arrival in France and Flanders. In the case of the 2nd Black Watch I would assume they had CCLE or MLE which they replaced with SMLEs.

Here's tae us  
Wha's like us  
Damn few
And they're a' deid

Happy New Year!
Chris

[Ianander]

4thGordons, on 01 January 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

I would be very suprised indeed to learn that that Ianander's post referred to the 2nd Black Watch having LEC.
I think it was merely a reference (quoting my observation) to battalions arriving from stations in the empire reequipping upon arrival in France and Flanders. In the case of the 2nd Black Watch I would assume they had CCLE or MLE which they replaced with SMLEs.

Here's tae us  
Wha's like us  
Damn few
And they're a' deid

Happy New Year!
Chris

Hello Chris,
                       yes I was,you hit the nail on the heid and Happy new Year !!!