38 replies to this topic

[Brimstone]

Hi all,

Bit of a long shot this (no pun intended), but did South African regiments that fought in the Great War, such has The Cape Town Highlanders bring with them there own rifles (like the Lee Enfield carbine) or were they reissued with a more standard rifle?

Regs
Brimstone

[TonyE]

To the best of my knowledge the answer is no, but I have no reference to prove that.

The Lee Enfield carbine was never converted to fire Mark VII ammunition and was obsolete largely with the regular British army by then, the whole point of introducing the SMLE being to replace both the long MLE and the carbines. The carbines lingered on with some Yeomanry regiments and colonial units but I don't recall seeing any reference to them being used with the BEF.

All carbines were ordered to be rendered incapable of firing SAA in List of Changes Para. A1274 on 19 August 1925. It is clear that by then they were only in the hands of OTC units.

Perhaps Chris has some thoughts?

Regards
TonyE

[4thGordons]

I have often wondered about Lee Enfield Carbine use during the Great War.
My thoughts pretty much echo Tony's

I have never seen any photographic or documentary evidence of Carbine use by anyone on the Western Front (I would be very interested in seeing candidates), nor have I seen any evidence of their use elsewhere. This has always struck me as a little odd given the use of MLEs and numerous other secondary weapons but it may be explained by the ammunition issue Tony mentions.

Having said this, I do not know when the RIC stopped using their model of carbine (so they may have been in circulation in Ireland) and I am fairly certain carbines were around in India (although probably being converted by WWI) but again I have never seen concrete evidence of them. There was also a version of the carbine supplied to New Zealand which may have lingered in service there into the war years.

The few accounts I have read of troops arriving on the Western Front from the far flung corners of the Empire appear to include accounts of rearming and reequipping upon arrival and almost all British and Commonwealth troops on the Western Front by mid 1916 appear to have reequipped SMLEs, so any service would most likely be restricted to 1914/15 and I have never seen any evidence of their use.

Chris

[TonyE]

Thanks Chris, I think we can agree that it was unlikely that carbines were used. Your point about colonial units re-equipping is a good one. Certainly the Indians were unhappy with having their MLEs replaced by SMLEs when they arrived.

I do wonder though if any of the Indian cavalry units managed to hang on to their carbines.

Regards
TonyE

[Old Tom]

The Enfield carbine is new to me. Has anyone a picture please?

Old Tom

[4thGordons]

Old Tom, on 28 November 2011 - 05:43 PM, said:

The Enfield carbine is new to me. Has anyone a picture please?

Old Tom

There were several carbine variants
The Cavalry Carbine (see this link here for some pictures)
was the main one but there was also a carbine made for the RIC to which a bayonet could be attached
see this link

They became obsolete when the SMLE was introduced. Previously there had been a "long" infantry rifle (MLE) and a much shorter carbine for mounted troops (and others), the SMLE split the difference as a short rifle for all arms.

Chris

[John Thorne]

Here is a photo of my New Zealand carbine, converted from a Lee-Enfield carbine. I'm sure someone will post photos of the other varieties.

 enzed_carbine.jpg   62.19K   3 downloads

[TonyE]

The only carbines that I know served in WWI were some BSA sporting carbines purchased by the Admiralty in 1915 when small arms of all types were in short supply.

The Admiralty Technical History states:
L.E. Sporting Rifle .303-inch. – This is very similar to the ordinary service L.E. rifle.
970 were obtained from the trade in March 1915 and issued to miscellaneous craft.


Some of these were carbines and here is a picture of a BSA No.4 Sporting Carbine marked with the Broad Arrow and "N" for Naval issue.

Regards
TonyE

Attached Files

•  RN Carbine.jpg   38.19K   1 downloads

[Peter Mc]

To round off on the comments regarding RIC carbines, click on this link for further pictures and information relevant to the introduction and removal of the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield carbine conversions. They were decommissioned in the period Spring-Autumn 1920 and replaced by surplus SMLE's following the cessation of (Great War) hostilities.

[Thunderbox]

Standard version of the Lee Enfield cavalry carbine:





I've never seen any photographic evidence of WW1 carbine use.

I imagine that even pre-war, any cavalry or yeomanry unit in an active operational environment with a risk of actual combat (i.e. North-West Frontier, Middle East, etc) would have switched to a more effective MLE.

[TonyE]

Peter Mc, on 28 November 2011 - 06:50 PM, said:

To round off on the comments regarding RIC carbines, click on this link for further pictures and information relevant to the introduction and removal of the Lee Metford and Lee Enfield carbine conversions. They were decommissioned in the period Spring-Autumn 1920 and replaced by surplus SMLE's following the cessation of (Great War) hostilities.

Unless I am mistaken, the letters shown on that Forum refer to Martini Lee-Enfield carbines, not to bolt action Lee Enfield carbines. Is this a mistake or are we talking about two completely seperate weapons?

Regards
TonyE

[Peter Mc]

It's a fair question but the writer is actually referring the the Lee Enfield and Lee Metford (converted to Enfield rifling)carbines introduced in 1904. RIC Martini Henry carbines were withdrawn in 1904.

[Zimm303]

I would have to imagine that the carbine’s inability to be loaded with chargers would have made them unpopular.

Ed

[TonyE]

Peter Mc, on 28 November 2011 - 08:23 PM, said:

It's a fair question but the writer is actually referring the the Lee Enfield and Lee Metford (converted to Enfield rifling)carbines introduced in 1904. RIC Martini Henry carbines were withdrawn in 1904.

Thanks. Whilst I can imagine a clerk at the Disposal Department simply repeating the description contained in the original letter, I am surprised the Inspector General's department made such a mistake.

Regards
TonyE

[Old Tom]

Many thanks for the pictures. While not wishing to go into great detail, is it the case that the sequence of small arms with breech loading was; Matini Henri carbine (all arms), Lee Metford (infantry), Lee Enfield carbine (cavalry), SMLE (all arms) ?

Old Tom

[TonyE]

Old Tom, on 29 November 2011 - 03:52 PM, said:

Many thanks for the pictures. While not wishing to go into great detail, is it the case that the sequence of small arms with breech loading was; Matini Henri carbine (all arms), Lee Metford (infantry), Lee Enfield carbine (cavalry), SMLE (all arms) ?

Old Tom

Sequence was:

.577 inch Snider: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery (plus 2 band serjeant's rifle and Naval rifle)
.450 inch Martini Henry: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery
.303 inch Lee Metford: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery
.303 inch Lee Enfield: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery (at least I assume the Artillery carried carbines)
.303 inch SMLE: All arms

There were also differences between the artillery and cavalry carbines.

And of course there were also the .303 inch Martini Metford and Martini Enfield rifles and carbines for the Volunteers and Territorial Force.

Regards
TonyE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

Although I am unable to assist directly with the Lee Enfield Carbine as it relates to the South African Forces, I can help with regard to a rifle I know they used during WW1.
I have in my Collection a superb 1909 BSA Long Lee Enfield .303 Rifle issued to the South African Witwatersrand Rifles.
This rifle first appeared in BSA's 1909 Sales Catalogue, as the " well known Long Lee-Enfield Pattern Rife, which has been modified by the introduction of a High Velocity Nickle Steel Barrel, new Back Sight, Leaf and Bed, new Fore Sight and Protector, Charger Bridge and new deeper 10 Round Magazine ". The rifle also has a magazine cut-off.
This rifel has all matching serial numbers, with the one being modified and given a South African Witwatersrand Serial Number.
The rifle also has South African Military issue marks.
The Rifle also has other extras such as a BSA No.5 Wind Gauge Sight Slide, the Nose Cap and Lower Band are asbestos lined to allow for equal barrel expansion, Enfield Military Pattern safety catch, the sighting notches are " U " instead of " V " shaped, and are Platinum inlaid.
The Walnut stock has an inlaid regimental brass disc.
The overal rifle length is 4 ft 1.5 inches.
The barrel lenght is 31.25 inches.
The rifle weight is 9 lbs 6 oz.
This rifle is in superb working order, and is extremely accurate.

[Lancashire Fusilier]

More SA Lee-Efield pics.

SA LE

[Lancashire Fusilier]

The Witwatersrand Rifles fought is the Somme, and elsewhere during WW1.
The Witwatersrand Rifles (often familiarly known as the "Wits Rifles") was formed on 1 May 1903 by members of the Railway Pioneer Regiment and the Rand Rifles, both of which had fought on the British side during the Second Anglo-Boer War of 1899 - 1902.
As befitted a regiment based from the gold-rich Witwatersrand region, it had a very close relationship with the mining establishment of the time; and its cap badge further emphasized this link.
The Regiment first saw action during the Bambata Rebellion of 1906, when it deployed a contingent to (the then) Zululand.
In 1907 the Regiment was further strengthened when it absorbed the Transvaal Light Infantry Regiment.
The regiment was mobilized again when World War I broke out. The first action that it took part in was the South African invasion of German South West Africa (now Namibia). After the successful conclusion of this campaign, virtually all members volunteered for overseas service. Most of the volunteers were consequently assigned to the 3rd South African Infantry Battalion. (Due to the South African military law of the time, soldiers could not be forced to serve overseas, nor could existing military units be deployed there.)
The most well-known action that this unit took part in was the Battle of Delville Wood in the Somme. Other members of the regiment served in the Witwatersrand Rifles company of 7 South African Infantry Battalion; this unit which served in German East Africa against the forces of General von Lettow Vorbeck.

[4thGordons]

TonyE, on 29 November 2011 - 04:12 PM, said:

Sequence was:
.577 inch Snider: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery (plus 2 band serjeant's rifle and Naval rifle)
.450 inch Martini Henry: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery
.303 inch Lee Metford: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery
.303 inch Lee Enfield: Rifle for infantry, carbines for cavalry and artillery (at least I assume the Artillery carried carbines)
.303 inch SMLE: All arms

Just to illustrate (without carbines) the length of the SMLE vis predecessors:
 SMLEContextweb.jpg   42.81K   1 downloads

1- .577 1853 Enfield Musket
2- .577 Snider-Enfield Rifle
3- .450 Martini-Henry MkIV
4- .303 Magazine Lee Enfield
5- .303 Short Magazine Lee Enfield MkIII
6- .303 Pattern 14 Rifle
7- .303 No4 MkI Rifle

and an RIC Carbine compared to a Standard MkIII*
 RIC1.jpg   10.9K   0 downloads
 RIC2.jpg   20.71K   0 downloads

Chris

[TonyE]

Thanks Chris, I knew I could rely on you to put pictures to the words!

Cheers
Tony

[Stoppage Drill]

TonyE, on 28 November 2011 - 06:28 PM, said:

The only carbines that I know served in WWI were some BSA sporting carbines purchased by the Admiralty in 1915 when small arms of all types were in short supply.

Regards
TonyE

I would categorise the Webley Mk1 autoloading pistol, fitted with stock, as a carbine .Issued to RHA and RFC.

[Sommewalker]

I think I have previously mentioned that during the celebration of the seventieth anniversary of the Battle of the Somme I was taking part in a a temporary Collectors Display in a large building on the Bapaume Road on the outskirts of Albert along with a couple of dozen international collectors.  One of them showed me an Enfield Cavalry Carbine that he had,after years of trying, succeeded in purchasing from a French farmer.  The story was that in the earliest days of the War, as a young boy the farmer had witnessed the ambushing of a troop of Lancers by a German infantry patrol concealed in a wood.  The cavalry were scattered by the sudden fusillade and had ridden off leaving a couple of horses and a Lancer Sergeant on the road.  After all had fallen quiet the boy went to the scene and pulled the carbine from one of the fallen horses.  He subsequently kept it concealed in his home for many years.  The carbine was in excellent condition but for some sleepy rust, without any of the usual signs of long service.  The collector also showed me some rounds of Mark VI ball ammunition which he said had been still in the magazine.  As silent witness to the truth of the account the magazine spring of the carbine was as flat as a pancake from being compressed for over seventy years!  So it would appear that carbines were still in service in 1914, if the tale is to be believed and I have no reason to suppose otherwise.  SW

[TonyE]

Thanks SW, that is interesting and certainly seems to show that some cavalry units still retained their carbines in 1914.

Are you sure they were Mark V rounds though? The Mark V was a hollow point and had been theoretically withdrawn from active service around 1900-01, as they had been outlawed by the St.Petersburg Convention.

Stoppage Drill: I think it is pushing the definition a bit to call the Webley with the stock affixed a carbine. I know the sights went to 300 yards, but it still only had a five inch barrel. I used to own one (unfortunately without stock) and it was quite accurate at short range but I never tried it beyond 50 metres.
I prefer to go by the official nomenclature, and a Webley, with or without a stock, is a "Pistol, S.L., .455 inch.....".

REgards
TonyE

PS I did do surprisingly well though at 500 yards with my long P.08 with the stock fixed. I could not hit the target but I frightened it!

[Sommewalker]

TonyE, on 30 December 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

Thanks SW, that is interesting and certainly seems to show that some cavalry units still retained their carbines in 1914.

Are you sure they were Mark V rounds though? The Mark V was a hollow point and had been theoretically withdrawn from active service around 1900-01, as they had been outlawed by the St.Petersburg Convention.

Stoppage Drill: I think it is pushing the definition a bit to call the Webley with the stock affixed a carbine. I know the sights went to 300 yards, but it still only had a five inch barrel. I used to own one (unfortunately without stock) and it was quite accurate at short range but I never tried it beyond 50 metres.
I prefer to go by the official nomenclature, and a Webley, with or without a stock, is a "Pistol, S.L., .455 inch.....".

REgards
TonyE

PS I did do surprisingly well though at 500 yards with my long P.08 with the stock fixed. I could not hit the target but I frightened it!

Sorry Tony, my usual mistake.  They were Mk VI of course. Now amended  SW