25 replies to this topic

[catwat]

Can anyone tell me if these two items, photos attached, are from WW1 ?
One looks like a home-made I.D. tag made from an old half penny coin. John Henry Watson was with the Leinsters and I'm 99% sure he was a P.O.W. What would the P.S.R.F. stand for ?
Would this bank note have been from the P.O.W. camp?
Any information welcomed.
Catherine

Attached Files

•  John Watson H-penny front.JPG   21.87K   0 downloads
•  John Watson H-penny back.JPG   26.58K   0 downloads
•  Bank note - front.jpg   10.63K   0 downloads
•  Bank note - back.jpg   17.77K   0 downloads

[Nigel Cave]

catwat, on 30 October 2011 - 03:54 PM, said:

Can anyone tell me if these two items, photos attached, are from WW1 ?
One looks like a home-made I.D. tag made from an old half penny coin. John Henry Watson was with the Leinsters and I'm 99% sure he was a P.O.W. What would the P.S.R.F. stand for ?
Would this bank note have been from the P.O.W. camp?
Any information welcomed.
Catherine

Have no idea about the tag, but the banknotes are from the great post war inflation - 500 million would have gone a long way during the war (note that they are not reichsmarks either). I used to have quite a few of these huge denomination notes years ago, heaven knoews what happened to them.

[catwat]

Nigel Cave, on 30 October 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

Have no idea about the tag, but the banknotes are from the great post war inflation - 500 million would have gone a long way during the war (note that they are not reichsmarks either). I used to have quite a few of these huge denomination notes years ago, heaven knoews what happened to them.

Thanks Nigel, you mean to say I'm not a millionaire ! ! How disappointing  

[Dawleyjockey]

Hi Catherine,
                        I suspect the home made dogtag is of WW1 vintage 8756 is a low enough number for the First War and  also R.F could be Royal Fusiliers but I have checked the medal cards in documents online and cannot match the three together Watson, 8756 and Royal fusiliers.
What is the year on the coin I cannot make it out on your pictue.
Dave

[centurion]

Nigel Cave, on 30 October 2011 - 03:59 PM, said:

Have no idea about the tag, but the banknotes are from the great post war inflation - 500 million would have gone a long way during the war (note that they are not reichsmarks either). I used to have quite a few of these huge denomination notes years ago, heaven knoews what happened to them.

The hyper inflation had begun to set in even before the war ended. Some German companies started to pay their employees by printing their own banknotes (which were more trusted than the official ones). At its peak there were even multi million mark postage stamps (mind you I think the Royal Mail is heading that way).

[centurion]

Looks like 191?
 hpny.jpg   60.96K   0 downloads

[ph0ebus]

I am seeing 1914 but a clearer pic would help.

-Daniel

[bigjohn]

Catherine
If you have a look on the banknote there should be an issue date and place of issue. On the ones that I have they are all issued from Berlin, The dearest one that I have is only 50.000.000 Marks dated 25th June 1923 only printed on one side.
regards
  John

[Jim_Grundy]

I'd guess that the 'P.S.' indicates that Watson was a member of a 'Public Schools' battalion of the Royal Fusiliers.

[centurion]

The note is "notgeld" ie emergency paper money, issued by the city of Cologne. The 500,000,000 mark note was issued in 1923 [the first notgeld issued by Cologne was a 10 pfennig note in 1917 which shows how fast the hyper inflation took hold] Was Watson part of the army of occupation?

[catwat]

Dawleyjockey, on 30 October 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

Hi Catherine,
                        I suspect the home made dogtag is of WW1 vintage 8756 is a low enough number for the First War and  also R.F could be Royal Fusiliers but I have checked the medal cards in documents online and cannot match the three together Watson, 8756 and Royal fusiliers.
What is the year on the coin I cannot make it out on your pictue.
Dave

Hi Dave,
The year on the coin is 1914.

[catwat]

Jim_Grundy, on 30 October 2011 - 05:29 PM, said:

I'd guess that the 'P.S.' indicates that Watson was a member of a 'Public Schools' battalion of the Royal Fusiliers.

Sorry, I don't think this would fit. John Henry Watson would have been lucky to have attended primary school let alone a public School.

[catwat]

bigjohn, on 30 October 2011 - 05:28 PM, said:

Catherine
If you have a look on the banknote there should be an issue date and place of issue. On the ones that I have they are all issued from Berlin, The dearest one that I have is only 50.000.000 Marks dated 25th June 1923 only printed on one side.
regards
  John

Hi John,
Koln 20 September 1923 Serie A No 023867.
Regards

Catherine

[catwat]

centurion, on 30 October 2011 - 05:46 PM, said:

The note is "notgeld" ie emergency paper money, issued by the city of Cologne. The 500,000,000 mark note was issued in 1923 [the first notgeld issued by Cologne was a 10 pfennig note in 1917 which shows how fast the hyper inflation took hold] Was Watson part of the army of occupation?

Don't know the answer to that question.
Regards
Catherine

[bigjohn]

Catherine
In reply to your question could this banknote have been used in the P.O.W. camp the answer is no he would have been repatreated long before 1923 the date of issue. For him to have used this note a possibility is that he was in the army of occupation, one of the bases was around Koln (Cologne) hence Centurion`s question.
Regards
  John

[Jim_Grundy]

Not every single member of the Royal Fusiliers 'Public Schools' battalions had a public school background in the same way that not every member of say, the Glasgow Boys' Brigade or Tramways battalions, were either members of the Boys' Brigade or worked on the trams.

'PS' is a recognised prefix to a service number identifying members of those battalions so I'd stick with that.

[centurion]

bigjohn, on 31 October 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

Catherine
In reply to your question could this banknote have been used in the P.O.W. camp the answer is no he would have been repatreated long before 1923 the date of issue. For him to have used this note a possibility is that he was in the army of occupation, one of the bases was around Koln (Cologne) hence Centurion`s question.
Regards
  John

There appear to have been three basic types of notgeld

• That issued  by cities (stadtgeld) of which this is an example. Many cities in Germany issued them up to and including 1923
  
• Those issued in POW camps (lagergeld) which ceased in 1918
  
• Money printed by individual organisations  such as large companies working for the government (eg Fokkergeld in 1918) in order to pay employees and suppliers etc. This was initially under the approval of the national government

Stadtgeld appears to have begun in 1917 because there was a shortage of coinage (possibly because of war demands for metals) and initially was in small denominations. As such it pre dates the hyperinflation but must have contributed to its rise (printing extra money without increasing production will do it most times)

[catwat]

centurion, on 31 October 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

There appear to have been three basic types of notgeld

• That issued  by cities (stadtgeld) of which this is an example. Many cities in Germany issued them up to and including 1923
  
• Those issued in POW camps (lagergeld) which ceased in 1918
  
• Money printed by individual organisations  such as large companies working for the government (eg Fokkergeld in 1918) in order to pay employees and suppliers etc. This was initially under the approval of the national government

Stadtgeld appears to have begun in 1917 because there was a shortage of coinage (possibly because of war demands for metals) and initially was in small denominations. As such it pre dates the hyperinflation but must have contributed to its rise (printing extra money without increasing production will do it most times)

Thanks Centurion,
Great information,I now know a lot more about the banknote that I didn't know before. Not sure how John Henry Watson came by it though.
Regards

Catherine

[catwat]

Jim_Grundy, on 31 October 2011 - 08:37 AM, said:

Not every single member of the Royal Fusiliers 'Public Schools' battalions had a public school background in the same way that not every member of say, the Glasgow Boys' Brigade or Tramways battalions, were either members of the Boys' Brigade or worked on the trams.

'PS' is a recognised prefix to a service number identifying members of those battalions so I'd stick with that.

Sorry Jim, didn't know that, I'll keep that in mind. The only thing is that John Henry Watson's medal index card only mentions him being in the Leinster Regiment.
Regards

Catherine

[Chris P]

PS is his religion. Presbyterian Scottish.........

ChrisP.

[FROGSMILE]

Chris P, on 03 November 2011 - 09:58 PM, said:

PS is his religion. Presbyterian Scottish.........

ChrisP.

Yes I agree, the standard lay out for official ID tags was name serial number and religion and commercial copies generally followed suit.  It is likely that he was Presbyterian Scottish by religious denonimation and serving in the Royal Fusiliers.  It would not be normal to have the battalion number or name inscribed, although some might have done so privately.

[catwat]

Chris P, on 03 November 2011 - 09:58 PM, said:

PS is his religion. Presbyterian Scottish.........

ChrisP.

Hi Chris,
He was R.C. and in the Leinster Reg., as far as all his documentation goes.
Regards

Catherine

[high wood]

There is no medal index card for a John H Watson with the service number 8756. There is no medal index card for a soldier in the Royal Fusiliers with the prefix and service number PS/8756. There are medal index cards for two soldiers in the Royal Fusiliers with the name John H Watson; their service numbers were GS/104615 and GS/108634 respectively. J.H Watson 8756 Royal Fusiliers almost certainly did not serve overseas with this number and regiment and in all probability transferred to another unit before going overseas if indeed he did serve overseas.

There is a medal index card for Pte John H Watson of the Leinster Regiment; he has the service number 6086.

[ph0ebus]

centurion, on 31 October 2011 - 10:22 AM, said:

There appear to have been three basic types of notgeld

• That issued  by cities (stadtgeld) of which this is an example. Many cities in Germany issued them up to and including 1923
  
• Those issued in POW camps (lagergeld) which ceased in 1918
  
• Money printed by individual organisations  such as large companies working for the government (eg Fokkergeld in 1918) in order to pay employees and suppliers etc. This was initially under the approval of the national government

Stadtgeld appears to have begun in 1917 because there was a shortage of coinage (possibly because of war demands for metals) and initially was in small denominations. As such it pre dates the hyperinflation but must have contributed to its rise (printing extra money without increasing production will do it most times)

Here's a nice example (that I just bought) from my grandfather's home town, dated 1917:

 FD10_17_1202.jpg   49.44K   0 downloads

Daniel

[bob lembke]

In the US about 20-30 years ago, in a small town, the village idiot came into the local bank and presented a piece of inflation paper money, and the dumb bankers looked up the exchange rate for the DM and gave the young man $37,000. He promptly bought a car and a boat, and a few days later the stuff hit the fan, and they tried to get their money back. Astonishing fools.

Bob Lembke