48 replies to this topic

[Aurel Sercu]

On German maps there is a Farm in my village (Boezinge, north of Ypres) which for years has made me wonder : What does that mean ?! In the first place because the name looks so  totally un-German.

Candit Troere Hof is the name of the farm the British or French name of which is Goumier Farm. Some members may know this location in the Briekestraat : that's where the Goumier Farm bunker still is (German bunker, converted by British troops second half of 1917).

Candit Troere is such an un-German name !

Candit with a C ? I would expect a K- ! And with a -t ? Not -d(e) ? Some post war sources indeed write Candid, but I think that this is a misreading, and that Candit is the original form. (I found Candit Troere in April 1915, May 1915, June 1917 and April 1918.)

Troere : I am not even sure how to pronounce it. Not with the -oe- as it sounds in Dutch. Does it have to be seen and pronounced like German ö (with umlaut) ? I don't think so, for elsewhere on the map I see : Gehöft.
Or does it have to be read in two syllables (Tro-er), and does this refer to "Trojan" ? Then : where does the -e come from ? And what can Troy have to do with a Flemish farm ?!

Other farms in the vicinity refer to the name of the farmer. (Hof Smagge, Hof Struyve, Hof Soetaert) But I cannot possible see a farmer's name in Candit Troere. Besides, the name of the then farmer was Phlypo.

Neither do I see a link with the French later British name Goumier. (Which on most maps is misspelled as Gournier.) (A Goumier is a sort of North African soldier in the French army.)

Also this : it seems that there is a "Plattdüütsch" word "troeren" (trauern), and a substantive Troere (sort of 'Seelenlied').

I am about to give up ...

Aurel

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[Aurel Sercu]

Only to add that I found, in L. Knieling, R.I.R. 234, p. 175, mention of a :
"Hilfsverbandplatz Ferme cat. da Treur",
but no way to find out where that was.

Yet somehow it seems to me that there could be a linguistic link between my "Candit Troere Hof" and this "cat. da Treur".

But what does "cat." stand for ? And what about "da" and "Treur" ? Which, as a Flemish word, indeed means German Trauer and Plattdüütsch Troer. Who knows, maybe "cat. da" (hoping this is correct) might lead to a misinterpretation "Candit" ? Farfetched ?

Aurel

[roel22]

Aurel, no idea about the meaning of "candit troere" or any other way it was spelled. But the use of the word "ferme" in "Hauptverbandplatz Ferme cat. da treur" may indicate "treur" has French origins. Had it been a German word, they probably would have called it "Hauptverbandplats Hof cat. da treur."
I think it was a French word, misspelled when the Germans themselves forgot what the exact meaning/spelling was.

Roel

[Aurel Sercu]

Roel,

I think we agree : somewhere there must have been a misspelling or misinterpretation into German. Whether the origin is Flemish or French ... ? I had considered : maybe "cat." is a misspelling or misreading for "cab." (cabernet, pub), but a pub so far away ? Is "Treure" a Flemish name (for a farm or pub ?) ... Don't know. Never heard it. And what is "da" ? Isn't that ... Italian ?   :-)  Or is "da" a misreading of French "du" ?

Is the origin of Troere / Treur French ? Well, on all French wartime maps it says Goumier.

Also : I would not conclude from "Ferme" that the origin is French, for Fme is what is written on our Belgian pre-war maps ... For all farms.

I am hoping to see a posting of a member with German roots. Even if his answer is : I haven't the foggiest idea, that would help.  :-)

Aurel

[John Milner]

Aurel

Are these two web sites of any use.

http://inventaris.vi...e/relict/213657

http://www.forum14-18.de/cdtr.htm

Regards

John

[Aurel Sercu]

John,

I'm afraid not ...

The second ... I have already contacted the man, and he replied that his spelling "Candid" was wrong, that indeed the map says "Candit".

And the first website (and also other website) ... They simply took the spelling "Candid" from the first ...

Meanwhile I am still thinking ... And thinking ... And thinking what could be the origin. The latest phase I am in : what am I to think of the fact that "Candit" (now) appears to be the name of one or more ... racehorses. And that "Troer" means Trojans. And that this reminds us of course of ... the Trojan ... horse.  :-)

But I think this is a false trail. :-(

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

Just this ...

Should anybody have access to German maps of the area, could you have a look how the name is spelled there.

Apart from Candit(-)Troere I have also found :
something looking like Candii Troere (almost illegible, a map of 2 Nov. 1916))
Candit Toere (June 1917)
Candit Troère Fm (a British tourist atlas)

The place is 1.2 km (3/3 miles) southeast of Pilkem, and 2.5 km ( (1.5 miles) southwest of Langemark centre.
On my maps I find it in squares V 42 and 6145, depending on the map. But on other maps the numbering system may be different.

Aurel

[egbert]

Aurel, give up and have a better night's sleep

[centurion]

You've probably seen this but just in case. http://www.greatwar....unt-advance.htm

[roel22]

Thanks for the link, Centurion! Especially because the Germans mentioning Candit Troere were part of Reserve Infanterie Regiment 238, the unit of my great-grandfather (although by 1915 he was in the Kaiser Alexander Garde Grenadier Regiment no. 1). Still nice to read about RIR 238!

Roel

Just checked the war diary of RIR 238 about possible clues regarding Candit Troere, but the farm is not mentioned. On 29 april 1915 the regiment took Soetaert Farm ("Hof Soetaert" on the map in post #1)

[Aurel Sercu]

centurion, on 16 December 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

You've probably seen this but just in case. http://www.greatwar....unt-advance.htm

Centurion,

Yes, I had seen that one. And had found it very interesting, because 22nd April 1915 (gas attack) was the very first day that German troops had taken that area.
And I had also wondered : maybe I should get hold of the original German text (of Geschichte R.I.R. 238 (pp. 56-58), or ask the webmaster. Though this would probably not be relevant, as I guess the German text must mention Candit Troere (in this spelling) too.

Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

roel22, on 17 December 2011 - 08:15 AM, said:

Just checked the war diary of RIR 238 about possible clues regarding Candit Troere, but the farm is not mentioned. On 29 april 1915 the regiment took Soetaert Farm ("Hof Soetaert" on the map in post #1)

Thanks, Roel. So the war diary of RIR 238 doesn't mention the farm, but the Geschichte RIR 238 does. May sound odd, but possible of course. (Though what Lt. Becker wrote, may date from a lot later ...)

Egbert,

I know you are saying that (posting # 8) to make me set my seeth even deeper in this. And cause many more sleepless nights ! How can you be so cruel !    

Aurel

[roel22]

Aurel Sercu, on 17 December 2011 - 09:46 AM, said:

Thanks, Roel. So the war diary of RIR 238 doesn't mention the farm, but the Geschichte RIR 238 does. May sound odd, but possible of course. (Though what Lt. Becker wrote, may date from a lot later ...)

You're making me curious, Aurel! What is the difference between the war diary of RIR 238 and the Geschichte?

Roel

[Aurel Sercu]

Roel,

I hope this doesn't sound like a stupid answer ...

I'd say : War diaries were detailed operational records or reports, handwritten or typewritten, written on the day itself, or maybe the following days.  A history was published, in book form, later, in the 1920s or 1930s, based on War diaries and other sources I guess ?

Well, that is how I see it for British war diaries and regimental histories, and I am inclined to think the same for the German side ?

Actually I was surprised when you mentioned that you had checked the war diary of the RIR 238. For I was not sure I understood, as I have never seen a German war diary myself. What you saw, was that some handwritten or typewritten report, the same type as we know for British units ?

Aurel

[egbert]

No Dutch fighting -its either Kriegstagebuch or Regimentsgeschichte. Both differ a lot w/r to details

[roel22]

It turns out I have a copy of the Regimentsgeschichte. Ofcourse I'm curious if there's a Kriegstagebuch as well...!
(And me fighting Aurel? )

Roel

[Aurel Sercu]

Roel,

That is so intriguing !

So you have the "Geschichte des Reserve-Infanterie-Regiments Nr. 238" ?!

Here
http://www.greatwar....unt-advance.htm
it says (in translation) that Leutnant Becker related (referring to 22 April 1915):

"(...) We hurried along a road which ran past the Candit Troere Farm to Ypres. (...)"

And that if I read it correctly should be found on page 58.
So your copy of the book does not mention that ?
Odd ... I'm left puzzled.

Aurel

[roel22]

I have to admit my assumption in post #10 was incorrect. The Geschichte does mention Candit Troere (on page 57 instead of 58). I didn't find it at first because I had been looking from 22 april 1915 on, and there it doen't say anything about the farm. Candit Troere is mentioned before that date (and no clues about its meaning, where I was looking for...)

Roel

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Roel.

And just to be sure : "Candit Troere is mentioned before that date"
What date do you mean ? Before 22 april 1915 ?

And keep an eye on any spelling or form that looks or sounds like Candit Troere. No sighn of something like "cat. da Treur" ?

Aurel

[towisuk]

Hi Aurel,
    Well it appears there are people around who have the surname Troere, also I see some with the surname Candit..
So could it be a family name associated with the farm...
Candit-Troere Yard (or Court)
regards
Tom

[Aurel Sercu]

Tom,

Do you mean that the surnames Troere and Candit exist ?
Probably, but they are rather hard to find.
And do you mean in the UK or Germany ? (I've just found a jewish family Troer in Argentina on the internet.)
I must say I have never heard them (or can't find them) in Flanders. Which of course does not mean they don't exist. But if so, the combination must be extremely exceptional.
But not impossible of course.

Aurel

[roel22]

Aurel Sercu, on 18 December 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

the combination must be extremely exceptional.

All the more reason to name a farm after them !
About the "before 22 april 1915": this date is described on page 58 of the Geschichte. That's where I was looking for Candit Troer. But this farm is mentioned one page earlier, that's why I missed it at first.

Roel

[centurion]

Aurel Sercu, on 18 December 2011 - 04:59 PM, said:

Tom,

Do you mean that the surnames Troere and Candit exist ?
Probably, but they are rather hard to find.
And do you mean in the UK or Germany ? (I've just found a jewish family Troer in Argentina on the internet.)
I must say I have never heard them (or can't find them) in Flanders. Which of course does not mean they don't exist. But if so, the combination must be extremely exceptional.
But not impossible of course.

Aurel

A long shot but could Troere simply have been some ones error in translating someone's hand written notes when typing them up? There is a British mention of a Candit Fraere Farm in a Canadian account of 2nd Ypres published in 1919

"The battalion moved up in the first place as sup-ports for the 16th and 10th in their operations against St. Julien Wood. Less than a mile to the south and a little west of the wood lay the frame buildings where were the headquarters of the 3rd Brigade, the farm it-self being then marked Vlamertinghe Farm and afterwards better known and avoided as Shell-trap Farm. The farm to the north of this was marked Candit Fraere Farm. In the rear of this farmhouse was a dressing station; and in front was Sergeant J. K. Young of the 2nd Battalion with a small machine-gun section, which he employed so well in beating down hostile forward movements from the wood and after-wards disengaged so cleverly when the remains of the battalion were withdrawn that he was recommended for mention in despatches. These farms were some-what protected, or at least covered by hedges with gaps cut in them at intervals.

South from the wood was No. 4 Company, under Major Bolster, in the field that was called the Mustard Patch. Should you meet a man of the original 2nd Battalion he will be interested in you if you mention the Mustard Patch. Further to the right lay two farmhouses, one within dangerous range of the wood and behind which was posted a dressing station so precarious before it was demolished that to go there meant receiving surgical aid without much increasing your chances of survivorship. The other farmhouse, near the St. Julien road, was used as a battalion headquarters."

I think there was a Flemish painter called Peter Candit and there seem to be many people called Fraere

[Aurel Sercu]

Roel,

But the mention of the farm on page 57 refers to 22 April. Correct ?

Centurion,

Thanks for making it even ... more complicated !  

So now we also have a Candit Fraere. Sure this must be a misreading of Candit Troere (and not the opposite), and Candit Troere in turn an error for ...

Vlamertinghe Farm ... That rings a bell, but right now I can't find it. The same as Shell Trap Farm ? (This one later changed its name in Mouse Trap Farm. And Mouse Trap Farm / Shell Trap Farm is almost 2 km southeast of Candit Troere Farm)

The search goes on.  :-)

Aurel

[roel22]

Aurel Sercu, on 18 December 2011 - 06:51 PM, said:

Roel,

But the mention of the farm on page 57 refers to 22 April. Correct ?

I believe so.