13 replies to this topic

[4thGordons]

Here is a rather damaged picture I just purchased. It shows a group of pre war Gordons - I suspect VB but possibly TF (hence the question)
They appear to show a Service Dress Jacket (left) a couple of Tunics?/Frocks? which have braid on the cuffs and yellow collars, and some standard highland doublets (all worn with trews)
Am I correct and is it possible to date this picture based on this?
The Sgt on the left (as we look) in service dress appears to have a star on his right cuff. Does this make it TF or was this also used by VB?
Anything that I have missed to date this picture (which is a Dundee photogrpaher)
Chris

 VBGordons.jpg   59.68K   2 downloads

[FROGSMILE]

4thGordons, on 24 February 2012 - 08:26 PM, said:

Here is a rather damaged picture I just purchased. It shows a group of pre war Gordons - I suspect VB but possibly TF (hence the question)
They appear to show a Service Dress Jacket (left) a couple of Tunics?/Frocks? which have braid on the cuffs and yellow collars, and some standard highland doublets (all worn with trews)
Am I correct and is it possible to date this picture based on this?
The Sgt on the left (as we look) in service dress appears to have a star on his right cuff. Does this make it TF or was this also used by VB?
Anything that I have missed to date this picture (which is a Dundee photogrpaher)
Chris

VBGordons.jpg

I think this shows soldiers from a Gordons VB around 1903-04.  The SD is is the early, July 1903 pattern, with twisted cord shoulder straps and the other men are in either 6 button doublets, or 5 button frocks, with the latter bearing typical  VB Austrian knots.  For these reasons it is clear that the image pre-dates by several years the formation of the TF.  The sergeants star shows 4 years (originally 5) returned annually as 'efficient' in a VB.  The men are also all wearing Slade Wallace valise equipment waist belts that were also typical before the issue of 1903 pattern Mounted Infantry Bandolier Equipment.  The photo was almost certainly taken at annual camp in 1903-04.

Addendum:  I have only just noticed the sub-title that this post was an invite to Grumpy.  No slight intended by my reply and hopefully none taken.

[Tyneside Chinaman]

Then again it could be September 1914 with an issue of old stock from stores!

Probably wrong but worth keeping in mind.

regards

John

[FROGSMILE]

Tyneside Chinaman, on 25 February 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Then again it could be September 1914 with an issue of old stock from stores!

Probably wrong but worth keeping in mind.

regards

John

Usually it is worth keeping in mind I agree John and of course we can never know for sure without corroboration.  Nevertheless, in this case there are so many features of VB dress that I believe on the balance of probability it is of the date quoted and several years before the TF were formed.  The SD jacket alone changed several times after the cord strap variant and there are just too many additional contributory factors.

[gordon92]

FROGSMILE, on 25 February 2012 - 12:04 AM, said:

I think this shows soldiers from a Gordons VB around 1903-04.  The SD is is the early, July 1903 pattern, with twisted cord shoulder straps and the other men are in either 6 button doublets, or 5 button frocks, with the latter bearing typical  VB Austrian knots.  For these reasons it is clear that the image pre-dates by several years the formation of the TF.  The sergeants star shows 4 years (originally 5) returned annually as 'efficient' in a VB.  The men are also all wearing Slade Wallace valise equipment waist belts that were also typical before the issue of 1903 pattern Mounted Infantry Bandolier Equipment.  The photo was almost certainly taken at annual camp in 1903-04.

Addendum:  I have only just noticed the sub-title that this post was an invite to Grumpy.  No slight intended by my reply and hopefully none taken.

Ran across this older thread that I find intriguing. So, with a bit of time on my hands today, I thought I would take a crack at identifying the VB by building on what has already been said including FROGSMILE's dating to 1903-04.  The definitive work on the the Scottish VBs is, as I imagine most on this forum know, Grierson's "Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force 1859-1908" (I wish there was a comparable work on the Militia battalions).  Grierson can be quite helpful by using his drawings and notes on uniforms; however, he is not very accurate on badges.

In 4thGordons' originally posted photograph, it can be noted that some of these men are wearing red doublets with yellow facings.  That eliminates these VBs who never wore the red doublet from 1903-08: 4th VB (drab SD jacket), 5th VB (rifle green doublet), and 7th VB (drab SD incl trousers).   Thus, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th VBs are still candidates.  Further filtering by cap badge is unrewarding; Grierson is unrelable in this area, and Bloomer II can only confirm that the 6th VBGH wore the regular stag's head cap badge with added scroll.

The man on the lower right wearing the tunic with the Austrian knot may furnish a further clue.  It appears the stand-up collar is of a facing color lighter than the body of the jacket (notwithstanding any film emulsion issues not understood by me).  The 2nd VBGH had previously worn an Elcho grey tunic with red collar while the 3rd VBGH wore rifle green tunics with red collars.  The 1st and 6th VBs had no such contrasting colors.  I would vote for the man on the lower right as wearing a rifle green tunic with red collar and thus of the 3rd VBGH.

Would anyone with a more trained eye regarding film emulsion contrasts care to comment on the above?

[4thGordons]

gordon92, on 25 May 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Would anyone with a more trained eye regarding film emulsion contrasts care to comment on the above?

The film issue is essentially this: orthochromatic film (the norm until the 20s although panchromatic was available earlier) responded to the green/blue end of the spectrum thus yellows/reds tend to be rendered dark. This is the source of the "disappearing gold stripe" in Gordon tartan. Whe had a bit of a go at this a while ago HERE see post 44 and throughout this thread

as the gold stripe is invisible in the trews of these men and the collars appear darker than the body of the doublets it is a pretty sure think IMHO this was taken with orthochromatic fil

Given the way the red on the doublets is rendered in the picture, and the yellow of the cuffs just behind the man you mention I am not sure that the collar is likely to be red, however......
Chris

[gordon92]

4thGordons, on 25 May 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

The film issue is essentially this: orthochromatic film (the norm until the 20s although panchromatic was available earlier) responded to the green/blue end of the spectrum thus yellows/reds tend to be rendered dark. This is the source of the "disappearing gold stripe" in Gordon tartan. Whe had a bit of a go at this a while ago HERE see post 44 and throughout this thread

as the gold stripe is invisible in the trews of these men and the collars appear darker than the body of the doublets it is a pretty sure think IMHO this was taken with orthochromatic fil

Given the way the red on the doublets is rendered in the picture, and the yellow of the cuffs just behind the man you mention I am not sure that the collar is likely to be red, however......
Chris

Chris,

Thanks for the short course on effects of orthochromatic film.  I learned a lot.  In addition to the Gordon tartan sans yellow line, I now understand why the red line disappears from MacKenzie tartan kilts and 79th tartan shows up with little trace of the yellow and red lines.

Mike

[FROGSMILE]

gordon92, on 25 May 2012 - 09:31 PM, said:

Ran across this older thread that I find intriguing. So, with a bit of time on my hands today, I thought I would take a crack at identifying the VB by building on what has already been said including FROGSMILE's dating to 1903-04.  The definitive work on the the Scottish VBs is, as I imagine most on this forum know, Grierson's "Records of the Scottish Volunteer Force 1859-1908" (I wish there was a comparable work on the Militia battalions).  Grierson can be quite helpful by using his drawings and notes on uniforms; however, he is not very accurate on badges.

In 4thGordons' originally posted photograph, it can be noted that some of these men are wearing red doublets with yellow facings.  That eliminates these VBs who never wore the red doublet from 1903-08: 4th VB (drab SD jacket), 5th VB (rifle green doublet), and 7th VB (drab SD incl trousers).   Thus, the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 6th VBs are still candidates.  Further filtering by cap badge is unrewarding; Grierson is unrelable in this area, and Bloomer II can only confirm that the 6th VBGH wore the regular stag's head cap badge with added scroll.

The man on the lower right wearing the tunic with the Austrian knot may furnish a further clue.  It appears the stand-up collar is of a facing color lighter than the body of the jacket (notwithstanding any film emulsion issues not understood by me).  The 2nd VBGH had previously worn an Elcho grey tunic with red collar while the 3rd VBGH wore rifle green tunics with red collars.  The 1st and 6th VBs had no such contrasting colors.  I would vote for the man on the lower right as wearing a rifle green tunic with red collar and thus of the 3rd VBGH.

Would anyone with a more trained eye regarding film emulsion contrasts care to comment on the above?

I don't think any of the men are wearing rifle green frocks Mike as even with orthochromatic film such garments tend to appear darker than the scarlet.  This is perhaps unsurprising when you consider that at the time the very dark green cloth was apparently almost black in shade.

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[GRUMPY]

First of all, I can find little above to disagree with. Must be losing my touch.

An offering on ortho. It seems to me that black and white pigments [ie. lots of black in the die, or lots of white] play a major role in the rendering of coloured cloth. This is touched on above: rifle green was in fact as near black as maybe, so the "green" aspect does not count for much. Conversely, a yellow with lots of white does not show up as very dark grey  [which in theory it should do] but much "whiter".

And a note on "trews". I always called Scottish trousers in tartan material "trews" until I read Murray's superb book on Music of the Scottish Regiments. He makes the point that trews are made up with one seam per leg, whereas trousers had/have two, being made not of a tube but of two pieces. Murray's book is very highly regarded, and I for one will watch my language [how I am expected to see the make up of leg-wear from a photo is another matter .......... the inference is that trews are tight fitting, trousers less so.

[gordon92]

GRUMPY, on 27 May 2012 - 11:45 AM, said:

First of all, I can find little above to disagree with. Must be losing my touch.

An offering on ortho. It seems to me that black and white pigments [ie. lots of black in the die, or lots of white] play a major role in the rendering of coloured cloth. This is touched on above: rifle green was in fact as near black as maybe, so the "green" aspect does not count for much. Conversely, a yellow with lots of white does not show up as very dark grey  [which in theory it should do] but much "whiter".

And a note on "trews". I always called Scottish trousers in tartan material "trews" until I read Murray's superb book on Music of the Scottish Regiments. He makes the point that trews are made up with one seam per leg, whereas trousers had/have two, being made not of a tube but of two pieces. Murray's book is very highly regarded, and I for one will watch my language [how I am expected to see the make up of leg-wear from a photo is another matter .......... the inference is that trews are tight fitting, trousers less so.

Grumpy,

Yes, Music of the Scottish Regiments is a superb work.  David Murray is a personal friend for whom I have the greatest admiration.  His 2001 edition is even better than the original.  David is a living library of Cameron Highlanders history, some of which he carries on from his father who was also a Cameron enlisting in 1906 and receiving a severe wound in the Great War.

[gordon92]

FROGSMILE, on 27 May 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

I don't think any of the men are wearing rifle green frocks Mike as even with orthochromatic film such garments tend to appear darker than the scarlet.  This is perhaps unsurprising when you consider that at the time the very dark green cloth was apparently almost black in shade.

I see your point about rifle green FROGSMILE.  Your image of the Cameronians/SR shows their doublets coming through on film as much darker than the man in the OP's photo.  So much for my theory about those Gordons as the 3rd VB!

[FROGSMILE]

gordon92, on 27 May 2012 - 03:35 PM, said:

I see your point about rifle green FROGSMILE.  Your image of the Cameronians/SR shows their doublets coming through on film as much darker than the man in the OP's photo.  So much for my theory about those Gordons as the 3rd VB!

No matter, it was a feasible theory and by such investigation do we find things out.  Here is another image showing the contrast, this time of a fine young Cameronian's officer.

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[GRUMPY]

I think the officer is wearing TREWS ! Murray suggests original trews were essentially for riding.

[FROGSMILE]

GRUMPY, on 27 May 2012 - 07:37 PM, said:

I think the officer is wearing TREWS ! Murray suggests original trews were essentially for riding.

Yes, one can see how the absence of an inner leg seam would make them more comfortable for riding.  Although for officers they were generally called 'strapped overalls' so I am unsure what those shown are.