40 replies to this topic

[mccartyxb]

Dear all,

I've just discovered this site - what an amazing repository of knowledge!

I am trying to find information on my grandfather, Leonard Edward "Len" McCarty. He was in the RFC stationed in Egypt in 1919-1920 and was a mechanic and a gunner on DH-9As. My father has a collection of many photographs (and negatives) of his time there which my grandfather annotated on the back at the time. From his notes he mentions the places Akotiri and Sollum. The pictures include many aircraft including a DH9 painted white F219 at Sollum, a Vimy, a baby Vimy, Sopwith Snipe, DH-9, Avro 504 K? and also a Bristol fighter along with the DH-9s he worked on. There are also pictures of him and his mates at work (and play!). As well as a picture of the pyramids from the air there is also a picture of a "Light Car patrol" bivouaced at "Shagga" Junction June 1920 and a DH- 9 number G-EAQM en route to Baghdad. Many of the planes have identifiable numbers on the side which may (I hope) help place them in official records of campaigns in which they were involved - if such records exist. Some of the numbers are: D7376, E1773, E8935, E8995, E9693, F1213, H5701,H7718. To date we have been unsuccessful in locating his war records which may have been destroyed in bombing in WWII.

I'm particularly interested in finding out about any campaigns in which my grandfather may have been involved while in the RFC and stationed in Egypt. He may have also been in a squadron that delivered mail by air to Belgium for which he may have received an award from the Belgium government. If anyone has any information at all, or can suggest suitable reference materials I would be really grateful to hear from you.

Many thanks in advance.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

Welcome to the forum
On 1 April 1918, the RFC ceased to exist on the formation of the RAF. This helps you because RAF records of service still exist and are held at Kew (as original records offline), up to the cut off date in 1920. If the record has been transferred to Kew, they are held in service number order in AIR79. There is an incomplete alphabetical index in AIR 78.

[Adrian Roberts]

McCarty
If you are able to scan and attach any these photos I am sure we would be interested to see them!

I'm not sure what he means by a "Baby Vimy"; could he mean a DH10, a smaller twin-engined bomber?
But the serial numbers relate to the following:
F219: A DH9, as you say, and according to my references all the others were DH9s except E1773 which was an Avro 504J or K, and E9693, a DH9A
The other exception was H7718, which if my reference is right appears to have been a Martinsyde Buzzard, a type which never entered squadron service. Are you sure the number is right, or can you post the picture? If the picture is in the UK or Europe, I would be less surprised than if it was of Egypt - apparently a couple of Buzzards were used for Communications during the armistice talks.

Adrian

[mccartyxb]

McCarty
If you are able to scan and attach any these photos I am sure we would be interested to see them!

I'm not sure what he means by a "Baby Vimy"; could he mean a DH10, a smaller twin-engined bomber?
But the serial numbers relate to the following:
F219: A DH9, as you say, and according to my references all the others were DH9s except E1773 which was an Avro 504J or K, and E9693, a DH9A
The other exception was H7718, which if my reference is right appears to have been a Martinsyde Buzzard, a type which never entered squadron service. Are you sure the number is right, or can you post the picture? If the picture is in the UK or Europe, I would be less surprised than if it was of Egypt - apparently a couple of Buzzards were used for Communications during the armistice talks.

Adrian

Hi Adrian,

Many thanks for your reply, yes I did make a mistake with that serial number, sorry. It's H5718 not H7718... a typo on my part. I also checked about the Baby Vimy, again my mistake. It was in fact (according to his notes, anyway) a Baby Handly... does that sound correct? I've attached a picture it. His note on the back reads "A Baby Handly, this is the machine that Lord Milner(?) arrived at our D-rome in, when he started his mission in Egypt".

Do you know of a record of what the RAF was up to in Egypt during this period? Is there a suitable book I should read?

Thanks again for your reply - I really appreciate it.

Bernard

Attached Files

•  Baby_Handly_F318_Lord_Milner_front_50.jpg   27.89K   11 downloads
•  Baby_Handly_F318_Lord_Milner_rear_50.jpg   47.77K   7 downloads

[mccartyxb]

Welcome to the forum
On 1 April 1918, the RFC ceased to exist on the formation of the RAF. This helps you because RAF records of service still exist and are held at Kew (as original records offline), up to the cut off date in 1920. If the record has been transferred to Kew, they are held in service number order in AIR79. There is an incomplete alphabetical index in AIR 78.

Thank you for the welcome and also for the information. As you may have gathered I have very little knowledge about the early years of the RAF so I really appreciate your help. I should also add that I do not know my grandfather's service number. Is there any way of finding it out?

Thanks again

Bernard

[jamie 1978]

Thank you for the welcome and also for the information. As you may have gathered I have very little knowledge about the early years of the RAF so I really appreciate your help. I should also add that I do not know my grandfather's service number. Is there any way of finding it out?

Thanks again

Bernard

Air 78 will help you find a service number. When you have this you can check AIR 79 for the record. When did he join up? If it was before April 1918 he may well be on the muster roll which is at the RAF museum Hendon, they will do a check over the phone for you. If his service continued after the war and into the 1920's or indeed the 2nd WW his service record will be with the RAF in Innsworth- you can rquest a copy for around £25, it takes a while though. Essentially you need to get his service number to try these other routes. Have you checked the medal index cards?



jamie

[bushfighter]

Bernard

Greetings.
I suggest that you look at the journal "Cross & Cockade International"'s website at:
http://www.crossandcockade.com/

If you look through the indices you may find some relevant articles.

Good Luck
Harry

[Adrian Roberts]

Bernard
The aircraft on the post-card is a Handley Page O/400, the principal British heavy bomber of WW1. It's "Handley" not Handly"; the "Baby" is presumably slang relating to its size. With a wingspan of 100 feet - more than that of a Boeing 737 - it was very large indeed, larger than a Vimy, but some German bombers that saw action were larger still. Some were used as transports after the war - in fact several of the early airliners were derived from this type. I don't know why he refers to an aerodrome as a D-rome - more slang perhaps?

The RAF was in Egypt as part of the Colonial force which continued to maintain the Empire - and in particular to protect the Suez canal. As to Lord Milner, I only know what I just found from a quick look at Wikipedia, but he was a senior British politician and colonial administrator - Lloyd George's enforcer - and he went to Egypt in December 1919 to sort out a spot of rioting.

Adrian

[Staffsyeoman]

I'm afraid I can't help too much, but am watching with some interest, as you never know.. (See signature block..)

[mccartyxb]

Bernard
The aircraft on the post-card is a Handley Page O/400, the principal British heavy bomber of WW1. It's "Handley" not Handly"; the "Baby" is presumably slang relating to its size. With a wingspan of 100 feet - more than that of a Boeing 737 - it was very large indeed, larger than a Vimy, but some German bombers that saw action were larger still. Some were used as transports after the war - in fact several of the early airliners were derived from this type. I don't know why he refers to an aerodrome as a D-rome - more slang perhaps?

The RAF was in Egypt as part of the Colonial force which continued to maintain the Empire - and in particular to protect the Suez canal. As to Lord Milner, I only know what I just found from a quick look at Wikipedia, but he was a senior British politician and colonial administrator - Lloyd George's enforcer - and he went to Egypt in December 1919 to sort out a spot of rioting.

Adrian

Adrain,

Thank you ever so much for taking the time to reply and especially with the information about the Handley. I'll ask my father if he'll be happy to let me post some more pictures as there are some really quite interesting ones, along with more of my grandfather's notes of events etc. As a mechanic, I presume my grandfather did use a fair bit of slang and probably wasn't that exact in his spelling

By the way, quite a lot of the pictures from his collection are printed as postcards.  Do you know whether this was a common practice? i.e. a service that was offered to the men at the time so they could send their pictures home. We do have some of the original negatives from which there have been prints made at a later date.

Could I also ask whether you know of a good account of the RAF's activities in Egypt that you could recommend? I'd be very interested to find out what was going on.

Many thanks,
Bernard.

[mccartyxb]

Air 78 will help you find a service number. When you have this you can check AIR 79 for the record. When did he join up? If it was before April 1918 he may well be on the muster roll which is at the RAF museum Hendon, they will do a check over the phone for you. If his service continued after the war and into the 1920's or indeed the 2nd WW his service record will be with the RAF in Innsworth- you can rquest a copy for around £25, it takes a while though. Essentially you need to get his service number to try these other routes. Have you checked the medal index cards?
jamie

Jamie,

Thank you ever so much for taking the time to reply.

I'll check but I think he joined up in 1917 or soon before. We have a portrait of him at Folkestone (was this where the men where trained?) looking very young in his uniform.  I'll check the details for the dates that we do have that should narrow things down a bit.

I don't know whether my grandfather received any medals although my father recalls him telling a story about receiving an award from the Belgium government for making mail deliveries during the war. Again I'll check with my father and aunt and see what they can remember.

We'll definitely use the archive sources that you recommend and repot back with any success... thanks again!

Bernard.

[mccartyxb]

Bernard

Greetings.
I suggest that you look at the journal "Cross & Cockade International"'s website at:
http://www.crossandcockade.com/

If you look through the indices you may find some relevant articles.

Good Luck
Harry

Hi Harry,

Many thanks for the greeting and also for the link. There looks to be at several articles in past issues of Cross & Cockade on the Egyptian campaign so hopefully they'll fill in some background information. I'll order them later

It would be great to find out what my grandfather was up to oput in the desert all those years ago!

Thanks again!

Bernard.

[mccartyxb]

I'm afraid I can't help too much, but am watching with some interest, as you never know.. (See signature block..)

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the reply!

Do you have roots from the Midlands by any chance? My grandfather was born in Aston, Birmingham and later moved to Kingstanding after WW1.

Funnily enough my father had an Uncle Phil who served in the First World War, but he was a Riley, not a McCarty.

Cheers,
Bernard.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I thought that it is a Handley Page O/100 rather than the O/400, but either of them could be seen as a 'baby' in comparison with the Handley Page V/1500.
http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/exhibit...e-0100-0400.cfm

Lord Milner was governorof Cape Colony and high commissionerof South Africa from 1897 who preciipated the Second Boer War. He was part of the Liberal government and had advocated the introduction of conscription; he had a group of followers and appealed to Conservatives and Liberals (very useful to Lloyd George in his coalition). When LLoyd George became PM he was used as a minister without portfolio and so travelled and commented widely; this included responding favourably to the Balfour Declaration, so he had a connection with the Middle East and Africa. From 1919-21 he was Colonial Secretary and chairman of the international mandates commission.

"He was surprisingly effective in negotiations with Egyptian nationalists, following a mission to Egypt in 1919 and 1920, and reported in favour of a treaty granting independence with safeguards for British control of foreign affairs and a military base. Although rejected by the government, the report was published and became the basis of the Anglo-Egyptian treaty of alliance in 1936." Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

There are several files at the National Archives dealing with the activities of the RAF in Egypt at this time, they are all offline. I just put Egypt in Word or phrase; 1918 1920 in Year range and AIR in Department or Series code into the catalogue.

The Medal Index Cards online are for Army awards; RAF cards have not been released to the public yet and RFC/RAF personnel are only on the cards if they qualified for army awards or occasionally if they tranferred from the army. Most RAF/RFC men entered direct.

[mccartyxb]

I thought that it is a Handley Page O/100 rather than the O/400, but either of them could be seen as a 'baby' in comparison with the Handley Page V/1500.
http://www.rafmuseum.org.uk/london/exhibit...e-0100-0400.cfm

Lord Milner was governorof Cape Colony and high commissionerof South Africa from 1897 who preciipated the Second Boer War. He was part of the Liberal government and had advocated the introduction of conscription; he had a group of followers and appealed to Conservatives and Liberals (very useful to Lloyd George in his coalition). When LLoyd George became PM he was used as a minister without portfolio and so travelled and commented widely; this included responding favourably to the Balfour Declaration, so he had a connection with the Middle East and Africa. From 1919-21 he was Colonial Secretary and chairman of the international mandates commission.

"He was surprisingly effective in negotiations with Egyptian nationalists, following a mission to Egypt in 1919 and 1920, and reported in favour of a treaty granting independence with safeguards for British control of foreign affairs and a military base. Although rejected by the government, the report was published and became the basis of the Anglo-Egyptian treaty of alliance in 1936." Oxford Dictionary of National Biography.

Fascinating stuff... thank you very much!

I've had a word with my father and he's happy for me to post some more images if anyone is interested?

[Staffsyeoman]

Hi Phil,

Thanks for the reply!

Do you have roots from the Midlands by any chance? My grandfather was born in Aston, Birmingham and later moved to Kingstanding after WW1.

Funnily enough my father had an Uncle Phil who served in the First World War, but he was a Riley, not a McCarty.

Cheers,
Bernard.

Stone me... we're also the Birmingham - Handsworth - Mc Cartys.... Grandfather Mc Carty died long before I appeared on the scene. My Dad used to say there were 6 Mc Cartys in the Birmingham phone book and we were related to five of them...

[per ardua per mare per terram]

I'm looking forward to seeing more of the photos. I've seen several photos turned into postcards, it seems to have been a standard service by developers.

[Adrian Roberts]

thought that it is a Handley Page O/100 rather than the O/400, but either of them could be seen as a 'baby' in comparison with the Handley Page V/1500

I was thinking of bombers that actually saw action in WW1, which the V/1500 didn't. I am pretty sure the one in the photo is an O/400, the O/100 had longer nacelles; also the 100 was earlier and there were far less built, so less likely to be around in Dec 1919. If I could read the serial number we could tell for sure, but I can't.

Could I also ask whether you know of a good account of the RAF's activities in Egypt that you could recommend? I'd be very interested to find out what was going on.

I've never heard of a book specifically on Egyptian operations; the magazine articles suggested are the best bet.

Not sure for certain about the use of postcards, but I have seen other examples like this.

[per ardua per mare per terram]

As this is a post war photo the machine can be compaired to the V/1500.

Unfortunately the interwar operations have not attracted a lot of coverage.

I have some postcards of an other ranks outing, which can only have had a limited print run.

[mccartyxb]

Unfortunately the interwar operations have not attracted a lot of coverage.

That's a shame, it would be great to find out what he was up to

I have some postcards of an other ranks outing, which can only have had a limited print run.

My grandfather must have had some his pictures printed up as postcards. He appears in quite a few along with the machines he worked on as well as in his flying gear. I'll see if there's any of the above mentioned Handley where you can see the serial number. There are quite a few dramatic shots of crashed planes like the one attached.

Thanks again per adua and everyone for your replies!

Attached Files

•  H5701_50.jpg   12.02K   9 downloads

[Adrian Roberts]

A fairly minor accident, but from the right-wing-down attitude, he has wrenched the undercarriage as well as smashing the propellor.
Note the spare wheel under the left wing root - a common feature in colonial operations.

[Dolphin]

According to the definitive The DH 4/DH 9 File, H5701 was allotted to the [Mediterranean]Expeditionary Force from the makers (The Alliance Aeroplane Company of Hammersmith) on 6 February 1919, and then from 'X' Aircraft Depot to No 206 Sqn RAF at Helwan, Egypt, from 6 August 1919 to December 1919.  It was with the Special Instruction Flight at Almaza from October to December 1920.

I hope that this helps.

Gareth

[mccartyxb]

According to the definitive The DH 4/DH 9 File, H5701 was allotted to the [Mediterranean]Expeditionary Force from the makers (The Alliance Aeroplane Company of Hammersmith) on 6 February 1919, and then from 'X' Aircraft Depot to No 206 Sqn RAF at Helwan, Egypt, from 6 August 1919 to December 1919.  It was with the Special Instruction Flight at Almaza from October to December 1920.

I hope that this helps.

Gareth

Hi Gareth,

Many thanks for your reply and the information on the plane. It does indeed help. I'll post some more pictures in a few days if you're interested. BTW what is the definitive The DH 4/DH 9 File and where can I get a copy?

Cheers,
Bernard.

[Dolphin]

Bernard

The DH 4/DH 9 File by Ray Sturtivant and Gordon Page (ISBN 0 85130 274 2) is a listing of every DH 4, DH 9 and DH 9A built, with a very brief history of nearly all of them, plus lots more.

It was published by Air-Britain (Historians) Ltd in 1999.  At the time of publication, the email address for sales was: mike@absales.demon.co.uk.

Good luck

Gareth