236 replies to this topic

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

"The Wet Flanders Plain" by Henry Williamson.   [Please see Katie's thread on 'Book Reviews']

Cheers,
Dave

Really??? Why?!

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

I am sure a great many people will agree with me when I say 'The First Casualty' by Ben Elton.  Why?  I'd read the whole book without being able to deduce whether it was intentionally comedy or a serious piece of Literature.  Anyway, I'm sure it's been derided enough times already on this Forum, so I'll say no more.  

Now, if we could just deviate from the original topic title ever so slightly and alter 'book' to 'poem'...

It's not specifically a First World War poem, I don't think - more a general 'war poem'.  It's written by a woman named Gillian Clarke, who would, I suppose, be termed a 'modern poet.'  I've been to hear her read aloud from her own collections live, and didn't find her at all engaging, to start with.  Yet in spite of myself, due to my interests, when she told us she had been asked to write something on the Vietnam War, (at least, I think it was the Vietnam War - I might be wrong) my ears pricked up.  The first stanza described how she was out in the countryside, watching a combine harvester at work, when she came upon some dead field mice.  The remainder of the poem proceeded to liken the fallen soldiers to the mice, because they had been frolicking in a field, and could not have been more unaware of the danger about to befall them as they were caught up in the blades.  Apparently, these mice also looked so 'innocent', and at one with nature, as it were.  Anyway, I couldn't help feeling a pang on the soldiers' behalf, and on behalf of all soldiers really (not, of course that I have a right to feel that way, having never served personally) but, for starters, Gillian Clarke had no specific interest in her subject matter, beyond that she had been 'asked' to write because some friend of hers deemed it appropriate.  To say the least, I thought the poem rather pathetic, lacking in substance and unworthy of it's subject.

As well, I have to admit being not particularly fond of Vera Brittain's 'Testement of Youth.'  She does come over as being too ambitious, quite pretentious, and always, ALWAYS this need to be unconventional!  (That said, the part where she describes sitting in her fiancee Roland's living room with his parents, and his clothes are sent back to her, and she can smell him on them, and she can also smell this other, unidentified, strange smell... the smell of the war... and it's as though the war is an acutal physical character... is harrowing).  I also thought it read more like a philosophy textbook than a forthright autobiography.  

Anyway, I have said rather more than I intended there  

[mruk]

Katie. I'll put your 'whys' and 'what-nots' down to playfulness and postmodern irony, but even someone as certain of themselves as you appear must surely read their own postings at some point. The answer lies there. Save the lack of warmth and manners for when you have completed your doctorate. You are on a forum not marking papers.

Dave

[tafski]

well  i aint  enjoying harry patchs  book at the momment the last fighting tommy to me its  all been said in documentarys  yep i can hear the  sharp  intakes of breath  and  the  snarls  as i type  but thats my opinion
tafski

now  wheres  me tin elmet
tafski

[truthergw]

I have a strange little booklet written by General Ludendorff after the war in which he attributes the defeat at the Marne to a plot between Hentsch, a general staff officer who urged withdrawal and General Moltke CiC. This plot was inspired by a secret, worldwide masonic conspiracy.
Katie, the works you describe have made an impact on you, which some might say is what books and poems are meant to do. For a sensitive handling of the impact of agriculture on field mice you need look no further than the master. Robert Burns. If you want a subject with greater affinity to WW1, he wrote another to a louse.

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

well  i aint  enjoying harry patchs  book at the momment the last fighting tommy to me its  all been said in documentarys  yep i can hear the  sharp  intakes of breath  and  the  snarls  as i type  but thats my opinion
tafski

now  wheres  me tin elmet
tafski

I was going to read that.  Presumably not written by the man himself?!

[mruk]

G'day Bruce,
You should keep that tin hat of yours on a laggy band.

Cheers,
Dave

[tafski]

I was going to read that.  Presumably not written by the man himself?!

katie  

it isnt my cup of  tea and  at least i am being honest

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

I have a strange little booklet written by General Ludendorff after the war in which he attributes the defeat at the Marne to a plot between Hentsch, a general staff officer who urged withdrawal and General Moltke CiC. This plot was inspired by a secret, worldwide masonic conspiracy.
Katie, the works you describe have made an impact on you, which some might say is what books and poems are meant to do. For a sensitive handling of the impact of agriculture on field mice you need look no further than the master. Robert Burns. If you want a subject with greater affinity to WW1, he wrote another to a louse.

If I read between the lines of that, you think personally that books and poems are not meant to have such an impact?  Well, I can't admit any particular liking for Rabbie Burns either - let's just say elaborate descriptions of nature get on my nerves a bit!  Speaking of which, Margaret Postgate-Cole's 'Falling Leaves.'  I've never really been sure about it.  The imagery is beautiful, of course, but as a war poem, it is about as idealistic as you can get.

Poetry prior to the Great War was 'Georgian Poetry' - in many ways a development of Romanticism, certainly I think it had it's roots in lyrical ballads.  Losing oneself in nature when the reality becomes too much...  Only all that changed in 1914.

[tafski]

G'day Bruce,
You should keep that tin hat of yours on a laggy band.

Cheers,
Dave

tell me  something i dont already know    but  its me honest opinion
tafski

[truthergw]

I was pointing out that you remembered what the poems said, even if you didn't like them. Perhaps some poems are written without the intention of being liked.
Robert Burns wrote to the condition of man. His " To a mouse", is a condemnation of exploitation of nature by mankind,  200 years before the first green decided that being an MP would be better than working. " To a louse ", is one of the most trenchant deflations of conceit that was ever penned. Every educated member of an English speaking nation knows the line ' would that power the giftie gie us, to see ourselves as others see us'. He wrote a condemnation of religious bigotry that still has them rolling in the aisles. Listen to Jean Redpath sing  one or two of his love songs. Reflect on the fact that people all around the world celebrate his birth every year. And come New Year remember who first penned the words that will be sung all around the world. " Auld Lang Syne".  Then perhaps when you have a spare hour, have a look at his poetry.

[tafski]

RABBIE  RULES OK

TAFSKIE

[mruk]

Don't forget Rabbi Burns. Another Jock, and connoisseur of cheeses!

http://www.frogboy.freeuk.com/cheeses.html

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

Okay, okay.  Rabbie rules.  I have time for any poet, be they great or small.  Perhaps I only wasn't fond of him because I more or less had his poetry rammed down my throat when I was too young to appreciate it.

[Desmond7]

Taf raises an interesting point.
Harry Patch is quite obviously a remarkable man ... I take my hat off to anyone who has witnessed what he has experienced and reached an almost unimaginable age. He has my respect in abundance.
But I must agree with Taf that, for those who have, shall we say, 'an interest' in the Great War, much of what would interest me in WW1 terms about Harry's life has been broadcast or written about before.
I will now qualify this by stating that I found the author's works on the POW issue/Boy Soldiers etc both in print and in TV terms to be excellent studies.

[tafski]

as  des  says  i also repect the  man but  whats in the  book  has  already been said before in interveiws  and documentarys
tafski

[mruk]

I was just about to come in on this Des, but I'll change my question slightly to one that Katie has raised, and ask who decides which work or artist is deemed great or small? It's purely a matter of personal opinion, I'm sure [or at least it should be], but why are some elevated to canonical status and not others. Who dictates the style and tastes of what is deemed acceptable and what is not?

The same could be asked of Harry Patch, who is undoubtedly a remarkable man, but purely for argument or discussions sake, is our interest in Harry because of his age, and the fact that he is one of the last known surviving men of the Great War, or are there other stories out there which are equally deserving of attention. I blame lazy and unimaginative research, and a willingness on the part of publishers to exploit a reading public. The public also have to accept some part in this, although, in many ways, I actually think that a comprehensive account of Harry's life story in one book is a good idea. I also like Van Emden, and believe that it will be a fair and balanced appraisal of Harry's life.

Cheers,
Dave

[PBI]

I have met Harry on Two occasions,and i dont think We even Talked about His War Time Experiences.I should imagine it must be very tiring for Him to keep relating His Experiences,even to the many Genuinely interested People that He must meet.And As Des and the Welsh Bloke Point out,it has all been covered very well in Various Documentarys.

[tafski]

err  the  welsh  bloke has  a name

[mruk]

Russell PBI and Harry Patch. Russ is on the left, by the way, and it looks like Harry is propping him up.

 Harry_Patch_and_Russ.jpg   72.79K   0 downloads

[PBI]

Apologies to Tafski,cor i remember that first meet up with  Harry,it was a good few years Ago,Harry was with a Party of Vets organised by Lyn MacDonald,the Piccy was taken at De Hollemeersch Hotel at Kemmeberg in November,what you dont get to see is Harrys 2 Litre Bottle of White Lightning Cider that He kept under the Table,anyone who Drinks that Stuff deserves a Medal.I am Deadly serious about the Cider.Arthur Halestrap and Robbie Burns were also there as well,i also had the priviledge of meeting them also.

[John Hartley]

is our interest in Harry because of his age, and the fact that he is one of the last known surviving men of the Great War, or are there other stories out there which are equally deserving of attention.

Dave

I think you're right on all counts. But, as such, I don't have a problem.

Of course, the book (which I havnt read) is a commercial enterprise and Harry Patch is a very marketable commodity so at a certain level one could take motives with a pinch of salt. However, I am always happier when the past can be related to the present (otherwise we run the risks of history repeating itself). And what better way to link to the past than with someone who was there (although as we know from another recent thread, Mr Patch's memory about some of his often repeated experiences is understandably not what it was).

John

[truthergw]

I suspect that the only person who does not think that Harry Patch is a remarkable man is Mr. Patch himself. I have never met him but I have met, drank with and even worked alongside some of his contemporaries. None of them thought themselves special although all knew that they had been witness to and taken part in great events.  I am uneasy at a fairly run of the mill book being hung on Mr. Patch's amazing longevity. Good health and good luck to him, long may he grace us with his presence but I won't be buying the book.

[Katie Elizabeth Stewart]

I suspect that the only person who does not think that Harry Patch is a remarkable man is Mr. Patch himself. I have never met him but I have met, drank with and even worked alongside some of his contemporaries. None of them thought themselves special although all knew that they had been witness to and taken part in great events.  I am uneasy at a fairly run of the mill book being hung on Mr. Patch's amazing longevity. Good health and good luck to him, long may he grace us with his presence but I won't be buying the book.

It was the events themselves that made the men great, and perhaps a lot of them would have wondered why they had been singled out for such a long life, and so many of their contemporaries had not?  In Max Arthur's 'Last Post', where Harry Patch's story is also written, I also remember readingthe story of a chap called Cecil Withers.  He was conspicuously different from any of the others, because he, unlike many of them, was utterly committed to remembering.  That truly did strike me as remarkable.

[J Banning]

Apologies to Tafski,cor i remember that first meet up with  Harry,it was a good few years Ago,Harry was with a Party of Vets organised by Lyn MacDonald,the Piccy was taken at De Hollemeersch Hotel at Kemmeberg in November,what you dont get to see is Harrys 2 Litre Bottle of White Lightning Cider that He kept under the Table,anyone who Drinks that Stuff deserves a Medal.I am Deadly serious about the Cider.Arthur Halestrap and Robbie Burns were also there as well,i also had the priviledge of meeting them also.

I stumbled across this post and whilst I am loathe to bring this up again I do feel that I cannot let this go without receiving a correct response.  I have looked after Harry on every trip he has taken back to the battlefields and was certainly at the Hollemeersch at Kemmel when the picture was taken. To say that Harry had a bottle of White Lightning Cider under the table is complete and utter rubbish and is somewhat disrespectful.  Are you implying he drank from this bottle like a street wino? Why do you feel the need to make this up?  

Harry is a very temperate man and hardly drinks alcohol. Although he is Somerset through and through, he rarely drinks cider and wasn’t even that enamoured with his own ‘Patch’s Pride’ that was made especially for him for his 106th birthday.

On another factual inconsistency, Robbie Burns died in October 2000 whilst Harry returned to Belgium for the first time since 1917 in 2002.  The three veterans we took on that trip were Harry, Arthur and Jack Davis (6th DCLI).