25 replies to this topic

[GRUMPY]

from honours published today:

Bar to the Distinguished Service Order (DSO)

Lieutenant Colonel James Alexander Delacour DE LABILLIERE DSO MBE, The Rifles

How can you be a member of the the Distinguished Service Order twice? New one on me!

[khaki]

Didn't General Freyburg VC have about five bars to his DSO?

khaki

[michaeldr]

khaki, on 23 March 2012 - 11:22 AM, said:

Didn't General Freyburg VC have about five bars to his DSO?

khaki

Not sure about that
however, another RND character, Brigadier General A. M. (Oc) Asquith, had two Bars to his DSO
[edit to add] another RND example Commander A. W. Buckle DSO and three Bars

Edited by michaeldr, 23 March 2012 - 11:42 AM.

[khaki]

I was mistaken on Freyberg, it was three DSO bars and five MID's

khaki

[Steven Broomfield]

Br Gen Lumsden (RM) has a memorial at Southsea Barracks: he had (I think) a VC and 4 DSOs.

[michaeldr]

Steven Broomfield, on 23 March 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Br Gen Lumsden (RM) has a memorial at Southsea Barracks: he had (I think) a VC and 4 DSOs.

Per the Appendix 3 in Blumberg's history of the RM published 1927
Major F. W. Lumsden, VC, DSO***, RMA

Still a very fine record.

[6th Shropshires]

The following K.S.L.I. Officers all had D.S.O. & one bar

Bt.Lt.-Col. O. C. Borrett.
Lt.-Col. W. A. Bowen.
Lt.-Col. N. E. Money.
Captain E. H. Robinson.
Lt.-Col.  H. E. Welch

and

Lt.-Col. E. A. Wood had three bars

Annette

[Simon Birch]

Captain Albert Ball VC, DSO + 2 Bars, MC.

[SteveE]

GRUMPY, on 23 March 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

How can you be a member of the the Distinguished Service Order twice?

You couldn't originally but the Royal Warrant was amended in 1916 as follows:

War Office,
26th August, 1916.
ROYAL WARRANT INSTITUTING A BAR FOR THE DISTINGUISHED SERVICE ORDER.
GEORGE R.I.
WHEREAS We are desirous of providing for the recognition of further distinguished services in the case of Officers who have been awarded the "Distinguished Service Order."  It is Our will and pleasure and we do hereby ordain that anyone who, after having performed services for which the Distinguished Service Order is awarded, subsequently performs an approved act of gallantry which, if he had not received the Order, would have entitled him to it, shall be awarded a Bar to be attached to the riband by which the Order is suspended, and for every additional such act an additional Bar may be added.
Given at Our Court at St. James's
this 23rd day of August, 1916, in the
seventh year of Our Reign.
By His Majesty's Command,
D. LLOYD GEORGE.


Link to the London Gazette is here...http://www.london-ga...upplements/8472

Regards

Steve

[FROGSMILE]

DSOs are often awarded for distinguished leadership during specific actions or campaigns where the recipient has held a significant command, or level of responsibility.  For that reason it is quite common for 'leaders' such as battalion and formation commanders to receive bars to their awards.

[Staffsyeoman]

That's the anomaly of the DSO - it is given like a medal, but is actually an Order (naturally) - in pedantic terms you are a "Companion of the Distinguished Service Order". This is why it cannot be given posthumously.

[GRUMPY]

so someone with "n" bars is a companion to the nth degree?

[michaeldr]

GRUMPY, on 24 March 2012 - 01:54 PM, said:

so someone with "n" bars is a companion to the nth degree?

Rather like Freemasonry, isn't it

[Staffsyeoman]

No - it is an Order with a single class (so you cannot be 'advanced in the Order', like others, e.g. from MBE to OBE). Bar would equate to the 'n'th degree, perhaps - as 'DSO and Two Bars' - but you're not actually 'Three Times a Companion'

[Steven Broomfield]

Nothing at all to do with J B Priestley's The Good Companions then?

[Nigel Cave]

Was it Dawson got who ot the DSO and four bars??

[barrieduncan]

I think three bars to the DSO are the most that have ever been awarded. Happy to be proven wrong but I don't think anyone has been awarded the DSO five times (DSO and four bars).

[Nigel Cave]

barrieduncan, on 25 March 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I think three bars to the DSO are the most that have ever been awarded. Happy to be proven wrong but I don't think anyone has been awarded the DSO five times (DSO and four bars).

Quite right - DSO and Three Bars, CO 6th Queens, dow December 1918, buried at Etaples.

[michaeldr]

Per that impeccable repository of information, Wiki
there were at least 16 recipients of a third Bar to their DSO
though not all are Great War

[servicepub]

Note that the wording;

Quote

WHEREAS We are desirous of providing for the recognition of further distinguished services in the case of Officers who have been awarded the "Distinguished Service Order." It is Our will and pleasure and we do hereby ordain that anyone who, after having performed services for which the Distinguished Service Order is awarded, subsequently performs an approved act of gallantry which, if he had not received the Order, would have entitled him to it, shall be awarded a Bar to be attached to the riband by which the Order is suspended, and for every additional such act an additional Bar may be added.

never mentions the term 'second award' but skirts the issue by saying that if the recipient had received the order he would receive a bar to indicate that, had he not already had it, he then would have received one. A bit like saying "if I didn't have the DSO already this little bar would tell you that I would have earned one again"
Clear as mud?
Clive

[Staffsyeoman]

All that's missing is the word 'already' within the phrase ...'if he had not received the Order' - I ran the language past a lawyer with some awareness of awards (and had recommended some in the past: I shall not go into details now) who suggests that this phrasing is deliberate to make allowance that you will not be awarded 1. Another DSO (i.e. another DSO medal) 2. Whilst not ruling out the provision of Bars for gallantry of a sufficient standard to merit further award. Saying 'a second award' may have been too prescriptive and would have led to more (unnecessary) wrangling if someone were considered for a Third Award (Second Bar) or Fourth Award (Third Bar) - thus requiring redrafting of the statutes.


On a parallel track.. Captain FJ Walker, the sans-pareil U-Boat hunter of WW2, was proposed for a Knighthood in common with other Captains, RN with precedent to WW1. This was demurred by the Admiralty - Knighthoods for Captains? Not in 'this' war - so he received a Third Bar to his DSO. And he is an example against 'hard work never killed anyone'. It did for him. "Captain Walker died on July 9, 1944 from over-strain, overwork and battle fatigue. During his years at sea the battle had taken too much toll from him as he rarely laid back and took a rest". He was only 48...

[Chief_Chum]

"Quite right - DSO and Three Bars, CO 6th Queens, dow December 1918, buried at Etaples. "

6th Queen's Own RWK  

[Siege Gunner]

michaeldr, on 23 March 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Per the Appendix 3 in Blumberg's history of the RM published 1927
Major F. W. Lumsden, VC, DSO***, RMA

Does a DSO and three Bars not equate to 4 DSOs ...?

[michaeldr]

Siege Gunner, on 27 April 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

Does a DSO and three Bars not equate to 4 DSOs ...?

Blumberg actually spells it out “and 3 Bars”


edit; Yes I see what you mean now - sorry
I imagine that, since this thread is about 'Bars', I misread the other post as referring to 4 Bars

Edited by michaeldr, 28 April 2012 - 07:42 AM.

[Staffsyeoman]

Leaving aside campaign medals - where examples are legion - the only ever British award for Gallantry or Long Service I have ever seen with four bars (five awards) was the Cadet Forces Long Service and Good Conduct Medal worn by our mess president in the 1990s.