51 replies to this topic

[-tmm-]

Hello there, this is my first post, so be nice

I am currently researching history about two of my Great Grandfathers who both served in WW1.

For my Mother's, Mother's Father, Cpl Arthur Abbs Suffolk Regiment 7th Battalion, 12152, I am fortunate to have in my possession his campaign medals (1914-15 star, British War Medal and Victory Medal, as well as 1939-45 medal and Defence medal from Home Guard service in WW2), his Suffolk Regiment cap badge, miscellaneous buttons (marked Royal Engineers of all things =/ ) and a fantastic photograph taken at Minden PoW camp with two other soldiers.  

From left to right:
Cpl Arthur Abbs, Suffolk Regiment 7th Battalion
Cpl Foxwell (?), Scots Guards
Sgt Bond, West Yorks

Photograph taken by Ernst Kracht



On the reverse of the photo, it just said 'taken at Minden 1917'. I wondered why he would be in Germany in 1917, and it really didn't click that he was PoW as nobody in the family had ever mentioned it (or knew of it).  After a bit of digging I discovered there was a PoW camp at Minden and it all made sense. There is a (very faded) stamp on the reverse and you can just make out 'Gefangenen-Lager Minden', which confirms it. Unfortunately after scouring the Internet for information about the place, I have come up with very little. A few old photographs and the current location of the old PoW camp.

Information request:
Does anyone have any useful/interesting information about the PoW camp at Minden or the other two soldiers or my random questions?
-Who were sent there? Particular nationalities/regiments/ranks
-What happened to the prisoners after the war ended. What was the procedure undertaken?
-What is the best place to find PoW records for Minden? I heard the International Red Cross might be the best place. Would the town of Minden itself be worth trying too?
-Does anyone know anything about the other two men in the photo? What happened to them after the war ended? Although a long shot without even their first names or regiment numbers.
-Why might he have had Royal Engineer buttons? Would these have been field repairs perhaps? I know re-supplying from fallen comrades was commonplace in WW2, but did it happen in WW1 also? I also have a brass badge of the word 'Queens' I am assuming something to do with the Queens Regiment. I cannot start to imagine how he came in possession of that badge.

I am planning to visit the Suffolk Regiment museum this weekend in a hope to find some information about his battalions engagements during the war.  I know he visited home at some point, I believe due to being injured and going back again, but now after learning he was PoW i'm wondering whether he was injured prior to capture and his visit home was leave from the front perhaps?

Unfortunately as a WW2 enthusiast, my knowledge of The Great War is severely lacking, hence my enquiries here. Thank you in advance for any information any of you may have!

Chris

[-tmm-]

Updated with names of the other soldiers in the photograph.

Also here are some more photos of some of his items in my possession (excuse the quality, i took them on my phone)

His issued prayerbook
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/the...ey/DSC00053.jpg

1st WW service medals
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/the...ey/DSC00040.jpg

2nd WW service medals
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/the...ey/DSC00042.jpg

Suffolk Regiment cap badge
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/the...ey/DSC00045.jpg

One of two Royal Engineer buttons (where they came from I do not know)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/the...ey/DSC00052.jpg[/IMG]

Another button of which I have no clue about. Any ideas?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/the...ey/DSC00048.jpg[/IMG]

Queens (Regiment) badge. Again, how he obtained this I don't know.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/the...ey/DSC00051.jpg[/IMG]

[O Wilkinson]

Minden was a strafe camp for NCOs...I think. I havent just got time at the moment, but I think I have read one or two things about it. I will try and look them out and post them over the next few weeks

Oli

[kevin]

Chris
Welcome to the Forum.

Sgt Bond is Sgt Richard Bond 18/922 2nd Bradford Pals West Yorkshire Regt.
He was taken POW on the 27/7/1916, he his aged 31 in 1916 and was a Proffesional Footballer for Bradford City before the war, is height was 5ft 4 1/2 inches.
His service records are on Ancestry.

Regards Kevin

[-tmm-]

Minden was a strafe camp for NCOs...I think. I havent just got time at the moment, but I think I have read one or two things about it. I will try and look them out and post them over the next few weeks

Oli

Much obliged, thank you!

Chris
Welcome to the Forum.

Sgt Bond is Sgt Richard Bond 18/922 2nd Bradford Pals West Yorkshire Regt.
He was taken POW on the 27/7/1916, he his aged 31 in 1916 and was a Proffesional Footballer for Bradford City before the war, is height was 5ft 4 1/2 inches.
His service records are on Ancestry.

Regards Kevin

That's really excellent information. More than I had hoped for infact. Thank you!

[kevin]

Chris
You might find the link on Dickie Bond of interest http://www.bantamspast.co.uk/TheFrontRoomo...ckie'b.html.

Regards Kevin

[-tmm-]

That's very interesting Kevin, thanks. I thought it pretty long odds to find anything about the other two, so I'm delighted


On nationalarchives.gov.uk I just found medal cards for a Frank John Foxwell, 6147 Scots Guards. Whether that's the chap in the middle I have no idea. A possibility though. Unfortunately my Grandfathers handwriting is not very easy to read, so I'm not 100% sure it's Foxwell.

[erniecrisp]

Most of the 5th London men captured at Gommecourt on 1.7.16 were sent to Minden; several escaped and their interviews are held at the NA in WO 161; Rippengal &nd Evanson were two of them, their accounts will give you an insight into the camp. Sure there are many more Contact Doug Johnson by PM; he's pretty expert on POWs and the camps. Chris

[Doug Johnson]

I will try and dig something out soon but there may be a bit of a delay.  

Doug

[Aaron Pegram]

Minden was a straffe camp for NCOs. Putting it as succinctly, and simply as possible, under the Hague Conventions allied NCO POWs and above were not required to work to support the German economy. To say that Germany was suffering pretty severely under the allied naval blockade is a gross underestimate. With a good percentage of its working men at the front, Germany relied on the labour of prisoners to contribute to the economy. NCOs could volunteer to work, however this system seems to have been abused in some army corps area where recalcitrant NCOs were sent off to particularly bad camps where they received some pretty harsh treatment until they 'volunteered'. "Silly stand", beatings, and general bastardry were the norm for British POW at these places until they put up their hand to agree to work.

I keep on harping on about Daniel McCarthy, but his book "The Prisoner of war in Germany" features an entire chapter on Minden, pp.77-104. It has now been digitised, so click here to download.

But don't let me give you the impression that captivity in Germany was all like that. Certainly parts of it were, but there were some fairly decent camps in Germany too. These seemed to have evaded much of the post-war historical writing on the German POW camp system, however.

Cheers,

Aaron

[Phil_B]

I was stationed at Minden for almost a year but knew nothing about a previous PoW camp. Any indication as to exactly where it was?

[Aaron Pegram]

Gday Phil,

According to the "Map of the Main Prison Camps in Austria and Germany" by Mrs Pope Hennessy:

" ...The camp is three miles from the town and is surrounded by farms. It consists of a big square with six blocks of huts. Capacity 18,000. Many NCOs were concentrated here at one time."

Next stop, Google Maps!

A.

[Phil_B]

Which direction? In the 50s there was a British camp at a place called Minderheide about that far from Minden.

[matteyre]

Hi Chris,
              My grandfather Corporal William Needham 11995, 8th Lincolns was at Minden between 5.10.1916 to circa 30.4.1918. He was captured at Loos 26th Sept 1915 having been wounded in the right knee. I contacted the CICR in Geneva who sent me all their details on him.. it takes some time but gives dates of where he was and when he was transferred. He was held alongside russian soldiers and picked up the language, and also returned home with carved cigarette cases and boxes given to him by them.
              In relation to Aarons posts, he was forced to work down the mines, and was 6 and a half stone when he was repatriated, compared with 13 and a half before. This left my grandmother with a deep hatred of the germans for the rest of her life.
                 I can e mail you his CIRC report if you want, send me a pm with your e mail,
                              will keep watching the topic,
                                                Matt

[linden]

Matt , was your grandfather mining near Minden ?  I did see a programme about factories in tunnels under the hills around Minden during WW2 .
I wonder whether they might be connected ? I wonder what they mined there ?
Linden

[Aaron Pegram]

Which direction? In the 50s there was a British camp at a place called Minderheide about that far from Minden.

That could be it Phil. Doug Johnson is the resident expert on these things, and has far more sources at his fingertips than I do, so maybe he can shed some light on the location of the camp. But what appears to be a camp of sorts at Minderheide on Google Maps looks pretty interesting.

Cheers,

Aaron

[Doug Johnson]

From memory, there is reference to Minden I and Minden II.  This however does not necessarily men there were two camps as many camps were sub divided, however the camps at Münster were separate camps as were those at Cottbus.  The pow cemetery was at Minderheide as I have a photograph of it, so I guess the camp/s were close by ie within walking distance.

I will try and get access to my records later.

Doug

[Phil_B]

During my last few months at Minden  we transferred from Joslin Barracks (on the Ringstrasse in an old German factory)to a new camp at Minderheide. Oddly, we had no idea that there was a British cemetery nearby and I certainly never saw it.

[matteyre]

I'm not sure where the mines were, Linden. My grandfather was in Munster 1 befofe Minden, and after that he was in Hameln. He spent some time in hospital at both Munster and Hameln. Although there are some POW diaries from 8th Lincolns, I've not managed to find others who were in the same camps as him.

[linden]

I lived 4 years in Minden during the 1960's . My father taught in the primary school which was located in the barracks compound and it was , I think , the former stable block . (Children were forever knocking themselves out on the old mounting blocks ) . It seemed to have always been a proper military barracks , but it also seemed to be on the outskirts of the town .  The married quarters also seemed to be a way outside town . There were fields behind us (one morning 2 young men who had stolen a small plane from an East German airfield , landed in a field beyond our house , when they ran out of fuel ) .
When I first  heard about the tunnels I asked my father whether he had ever heard about them  -  he hadn't . It sounds as though the British military who lived there , really knew little or nothing of what happened in the area during the 2 world wars .
Matt , to me , Munster sounds more likely for the mining  unless they mined the "tunnels" .
Someone mentioned Minden as a "Strafe" camp . Isn't that a "punishment" camp ?  Is that different from an ordinary POW camp ?

Is there anyone who can tell us anything about Ernst Kracht , who took the photograph ?

[-tmm-]

I will try and dig something out soon but there may be a bit of a delay.  

Doug

Much appreciated, thanks

I keep on harping on about Daniel McCarthy, but his book "The Prisoner of war in Germany" features an entire chapter on Minden, pp.77-104. It has now been digitised, so click here to download.

Thanks, a lot for that, I'm downloading it now!

[-tmm-]

I  was stationed at Minden for almost a year but knew nothing about a  previous PoW camp. Any indication as to exactly where it was?

Gday Phil,

According to the "Map of the Main Prison Camps in Austria and Germany" by Mrs Pope Hennessy:

"  ...The camp is three miles from the town and is surrounded by farms. It  consists of a big square with six blocks of huts. Capacity 18,000. Many  NCOs were concentrated here at one time."

Next stop, Google Maps!

A.

I  don't have any evidence to support this, but I could only assume that a  PoW camp would have a good layout for future use as a barracks or  miltary facility. Searching the Internet, I have found that there was a  displaced persons camp at Minden in WW2. I would assume that would also  be on the same site.

Google map 2 miles or so North West of Minden. Whether this is the right place or not, I am only speculating

[-tmm-]

Hi Chris,
My grandfather Corporal William Needham 11995, 8th Lincolns was at Minden between 5.10.1916 to circa 30.4.1918. He was captured at Loos 26th Sept 1915 having been wounded in the right knee. I contacted the CICR in Geneva who sent me all their details on him.. it takes some time but gives dates of where he was and when he was transferred. He was held alongside russian soldiers and picked up the language, and also returned home with carved cigarette cases and boxes given to him by them.
In relation to Aarons posts, he was forced to work down the mines, and was 6 and a half stone when he was repatriated, compared with 13 and a half before. This left my grandmother with a deep hatred of the germans for the rest of her life.
I can e mail you his CIRC report if you want, send me a pm with your e mail,
will keep watching the topic,
Matt

That'll be very interesting reading, I'll PM you my email address shortly

Is there anyone who can tell us anything about Ernst Kracht , who took the photograph ?

Having tried to find information online, the only other photos of his thay I can find are also of PoWs of various nationalities in various different camps. Perhaps this is how he made his living? Photographing PoWs to be sent home to families.

[Phil_B]

I lived 4 years in Minden during the 1960's . My father taught in the primary school which was located in the barracks compound and it was , I think , the former stable block .

There were IIRC 2 major barracks there in the mid 50s, occupied by the Berkshires and the Manchesters. The Berkshires were referred to as the Carrot Crunchers and the Manchesters as the Manchester Regiment if you didn`t want a "serious talking to"!

[-tmm-]

Another button of which I have no clue about. Any ideas?
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/the...ey/DSC00048.jpg[/IMG]

Turns out this is a button from my Grandma's WW2 Fire Service uniform. Haha no idea how it got with my Great Grandfather's things!


Also, I visited the Suffolk Regiment museum and managed to put together some useful information. Mainly where the 7th Batallion was throughout the war and when. It gave some insights to where my Great Grandfather was captured, but only speculation on my part really. Next stop will be the Bury St Edmunds records office, where all the Suffolk Regiments documents are located. Unfortunately I wont be able to visit there for a month or so

Thanks again to everyone who's replied so far