25 replies to this topic

[T8HANTS]

As a Standard Bearer for my Comrades Association whenever I am in the church where the Old Contemptibles Standard is resting I often just touch it an think of that exclusive bunch who marched so proudly under it.

Set to rest in the 1980's it is still in first class condition, which got me thinking.  Should it be brought out just once more to lead the Great Wars 100th anniversary remembrance parade in 2014, as a special tribute the men who stopped the Kaiser.

I wasn't just thinking of my area, but where ever the standards still exist in usable condition, as a national tribute to the very special group of servicemen who didn't always get the honour they deserved.

Thoughts please.

Gareth

[tafski]

why only the 100th aniv  maybe it should be used   every  rememberance  day just a thought
tafski

[NigelS]

As a one off, a nice idea Gareth; although a nice sentiment tafski, how long would they then be likely to last with regular exposure to the elements?

Nigel S

[Siege Gunner]

It's a nice idea, Gareth, but a laid-up standard that appears to be well preserved in the tranquil conditions of a church might not be up to the rigours of being taken down and paraded.  An appropriate tribute, in advance of the Centenary, might be for such standards to be examined by an expert textiles conservator, with funds being raised where necessary for conservation work to ensure their continued survival.  Standards in good condition that are laid up in inaccessible locations could perhaps be put on temporary display in a more accessible position for a period during the Centenary year.

[T8HANTS]

Hi Taff I would go along with that, alongside the OCA Standard is the South Africa Association Standard, also in tip top condition.  Alongside that is the pair of standards for the 2nd Madras Fusiliers, which are almost gone.

No other historic artifact that I know of is allowed to deteriorate and rot off the pole like Regimental and Association Standards.  I have long wished that Regimental Standards could come out of the churches who do not always care for them, and perhaps go to a national building dedicated to their display and preservation.

Gareth

[tafski]

Hi Gareth

may be   copies  of  such  standards  could be  commisissioned  there  fore  leaving  originals  to be   laid up ensuring that  could not be  damaged , maybe a  project  you  may  well like  to look into

tafski

[Siege Gunner]

Should there, perhaps, at least be a national photographic survey/record of surviving standards.  Scope, maybe, for a project along the lines of 'Drill Halls'?

[dycer]

I fully agree with the sentiments expressed regarding preservation,etc but in fairness is it not against the reasons why the Standards were laid up i.e.The Association wanted the Standards to be laid up permanently in the Church?
George

[ianw]

As the grandson of an OC, I think this is an excellent idea and I suspect the old fellers (and ladies) might forgive us for a centenary parade of these standards.

As a by the by, I think some may no longer be on display as they may have beenn removed by clergy averse to the symbols of war.

[QACapt]

In my opinion, as a standard that has been laid up in a church, it should be left as such, in exactly the same way as all standardas that are laid up are left.

Next you'll be saying that you want to dig up a veteran from a WW1 grave and parade the skeleton!

[T8HANTS]

QACapt While I did not expect universal support for the idea, I did expect a reasonable level of debate, I think you have belittled yourself with that one.

Laid up standards are not sacrosanct and I know of several that have been thrown away because the new incumbent did not like them.  I believe the same fate has happened to those laid up at the Old Contemptibles chapel itself. If you consider that being binned is a better option than being flown on a special one off, as a mark of respect, fine you are entitled to that opinion, I will just disagree.

Gareth

[tafski]

In my opinion, as a standard that has been laid up in a church, it should be left as such, in exactly the same way as all standardas that are laid up are left.

Next you'll be saying that you want to dig up a veteran from a WW1 grave and parade the skeleton!

can agree  with your  first  comment

as  for your  second  comment i feel this  to be out of hand  and an insult  Do  you really think anybody  would  want  this  to happen
tafski

[dycer]

Gareth,
   We still gon't get around the final wishes of the Association.
   I've been in Churches where all that remains is the pole and a few shards of cloth so I'm under no illusions as what time does do standards.I appreciate it seems criminal to see them rotting like that but at least they have remained in situ as requested.
   Have the Church Authorities got the right to remove Flags?I can imagine the Health and Safety excuse but it seems to hold little water for the Standards,a woodworm pole may be an issue,though.
George

[Jack Sheldon]

We clearly need to differientiate between Branch Standards and Regimental Colours. I am not sure about the status of standards, but once colours are laid up, that is it; they stay until they crumble to dust - though I must admit I have seen some old ones netted, so somebody must have moved them for maintainance.

Jack

[joseph]

In Beverley Minster when a standard has had its day, it is put into a glass jar and displayed in a cabinet.

A photographic record of all 'Colours' would be nice.

Regards Charles

[T8HANTS]

It is quite correct that Regimental Standards and Colours, can remain in situ until they crumble to dust.  They cannot be resurrected because they have either been replaced with all due ceremonial or the Regiment has ceased to be.

The case with branch standards may be different, as they are normally laid up on a last man standing basis, and do not come with all the weight of the Sovereigns Majesty that is attached to Regimental Colours.

My question was based on as far as I am aware there is no legal hindrance to carrying a retired standard.  It is now impossible to discern the wishes of those whose standards they were, and so I was interested to gauge the thoughts of members on a special one off, as a mark of respect and tribute to a very special group of servicemen.

The concerns over the condition of each standard and even weather on the day are very valid, but if thought up to it would make a grand sight to see the OCA's standards fly once more.  Perhaps leaving out the dip to ground in view of their age.

I cannot speak for other areas, but I do know that three Royal Artillery Standards were thrown out of an Island church that had been the RAA's chapel many years ago, because the new man in did not agree with what the represented.  


Gareth

[MACRAE]

Hi Gareth

may be   copies  of  such  standards  could be  commisissioned  there  fore  leaving  originals  to be   laid up ensuring that  could not be  damaged , maybe a  project  you  may  well like  to look into

tafski

Odd that Bruce I was looking into a replica being made for that very idea for 2014 but also to be used at any other parade as and when.

Dan

[Steven Broomfield]

Three years ago, thanks to a recommendation from Jack Sheldon, I spent my 50th birthday in the excellent Bavarian Army Museum at Ingolstadt.  There, a main hall of the Schloss which houses most of the collection is given over to a collection of Bavarian regimental standards.  I can honestly say the overall impression they give absolutely took my breath away (in a way that only the Whistler trompe d'oeil morning room at Mottisfont Abbey has done in recent years).

I think the idea of a preserved national collection of Regimental Colours is an excellent one.  

I suspect the main reason they were laid-up in churches in the past was that there was nowhere else to put them, so moving them to a proper place would (I think) have few legal issues.

My own experience of trying to lay-up a Legion Standard locally in the Parish Church is that a few happy clappy vicars (and, yes, that is a term of disapproval) would cheerfully see the back of them.

And, incidentally, if anyone finds themselves in Ingolstadt with a day to spare, the museum referred-to above is well worth a visit.  I can't wait to have the opportunity to go back - it's a nice town, too (and so handy for buying an Audi).

[Tom A McCluskey]

Gareth,

No offence, but you have asked for opinion, and I have to say I am fundamentally opposed to anyone who was not one of the 'Old Contemptibles', marching about with, for whatever reason, the standard of an organisation that has passed into history and that they have not earned the right to bear. The standard has been laid-up in what is its intended resting place - and I think that is where it should lay, undisturbed, and part of history.

Aye

Tom McC

[Vic Kennett]

The Standard for the Margate Branch is still being paraded each year at the Festival of Remembrance.  I have been doing it for the last 10 years since my father died and he took over from his father who served in the 16th Lancers 1914-1918.  We had the Standard refurbished in the early 90s.  I tried getting the RBL interested in parading the Standard at the Albert Hall but they shot the idea down.

Vic

As a Standard Bearer for my Comrades Association whenever I am in the church where the Old Contemptibles Standard is resting I often just touch it an think of that exclusive bunch who marched so proudly under it.

Set to rest in the 1980's it is still in first class condition, which got me thinking.  Should it be brought out just once more to lead the Great Wars 100th anniversary remembrance parade in 2014, as a special tribute the men who stopped the Kaiser.

I wasn't just thinking of my area, but where ever the standards still exist in usable condition, as a national tribute to the very special group of servicemen who didn't always get the honour they deserved.

Thoughts please.

Gareth

[Nigel Cave]

I wonder if the aim was deliberately to let time take its toll - like old soldier 'they simply fade away' - rather in the fashion of cadinal's hats, hung above the tomb of the relevant cardinal and allowed to disintegrate over the years (and some of them have taken an awful lot of time to do that - I have seen fifteenth century specimens still hanging on in there!). I think it is a rather evocative symbolism - if that's what it is meant to be.

[JustinWilley]

I wonder if the aim was deliberately to let time take its toll - like old soldier 'they simply fade away' - rather in the fashion of cadinal's hats, hung above the tomb of the relevant cardinal and allowed to disintegrate over the years (and some of them have taken an awful lot of time to do that - I have seen fifteenth century specimens still hanging on in there!). I think it is a rather evocative symbolism - if that's what it is meant to be.

I must say I agree with the idea of a dignified end, on display but slowly decaying away in the peace of a church transept. They should be properly recorded of course, while they still retain their colour and legibility, but I for one, don't feel its appropiate or respectful for them to be carried by anyone but the people that they represented.

Even when old regimental colours are displayed in a museum, they seem somehow diminished behind glass and lit.

I quite appreciate that others see things differently, its much the same with the question of wearing a relation's medals.

Justin Willey

[CarylW]

Came across this thread from four years ago.

Did anything ever come of Siege Gunner's suggestion in post #7?
Should there, perhaps, at least be a national photographic survey/record of surviving standards. Scope, maybe, for a project.....'

If it hasn't, great idea.

[Iain]

As a Grandson of an old contemptible myself ( and it`s my proudest claim to fame) I think that for the 100th Anniversary that at least for this one occassion new colours should be presented to the various Regimental and not forgetting army troops associations or pertinent current modern day Army Battalions ( such that are left, defence cut s and all) and that they should then once the cremonies are over be laid up beside the original colours.
Iain

[ianjonescl]

T8HANTS, on 10 August 2008 - 05:12 PM, said:

It is quite correct that Regimental Standards and Colours, can remain in situ until they crumble to dust.  They cannot be resurrected because they have either been replaced with all due ceremonial or the Regiment has ceased to be.

Gareth

The colours of the 2nd Battalion Tyneside Scottish were not allowed to rot. They were laid up in St Cuthbert's Church, Bedlington, Northumberland in July 1920. They were restored and re-dedicated in july 2009.

http://tynesidescott...n-tyneside.html