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Cairo gang


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#26 corisande

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 06:39 PM

Certainly after playing with the photos I am convinced that #3 is not McLean, and #9 is not Baggallay

We have not heard anything of late from Gaelrgoir, who put up the names on the "iconic" photo. Though I notice he was online yesterday.

Thanks to Aled's find, there is enough evidence for me to take it to the academics

#27 murrough

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 07:26 PM

I agree Corisande, the photo is looking dubious.I myself have seen this photo many times in the past and I accepted it at face value like many other people but after seeing the concerns raised regarding the Price/O'Hara "photo" in the earlier post,it has made me think twice.Even recently a famous newsreel attributed to the Aussies at Gallipoli was found to be the 5th Royal Irish Fusiliers and NZ troops.It is important that questions are asked and the photo thoroughly researched.
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#28 pob9937

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:04 PM

Hi,
At a recent art exhibition in Dublin, the painter Mick o Dea had a collection of paintings done of the Black and Tans. These were taken from original photographs.
he studied the faces of the subjects and painted the picture of the Cairo gang. At a gallery talk the painter stated that The man listed as number 3 appears in a another photo dressed as .... an auxillary police man/ black and tan.
Paul

#29 murrough

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:22 PM

It would be interesting to find out more about this,is there anything online? No3 has quite a distinctive face so he could be identifiable, but in my opinion it is not Maclean as was stated in an earlier post.I am not saying that these men are not Tans/Auxies/Army, I just dont think they are the Cairo Gang judging by the photo in ILN.More digging is required and thanks for the input.
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#30 murrough

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:31 PM

Mick O'deas work here with some backround info.

http://www.dnote.inf...e=from_text.cgi

More here
http://www.kevinkava...w.asp?show=142#



Have to say I like his work.

#31 corisande

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:43 PM

QUOTE
he studied the faces of the subjects and painted the picture of the Cairo gang.


I think we are confusing ourselves if we go down this route.

1. There is the original photo
2. a painter has, as I understand it, painted that photo with new faces that he got off photographs.
3. If the original photo is a fake, then his painting is just compounding the error
4. The photo of the painting does ot have enough definition to be sure, but it actually looks just like he has painted the original photo.

#32 murrough

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 08:49 PM

W.D.Hogan is mentioned in the articles as been a commercial photographer who supplied pictures of events following 1916 to Irish local and national papers such as the Weekly Freeman, maybe a starting point.

#33 corisande

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 09:02 PM

I established on Rootschat that the original photo is in Getty Image Archives and is credited to a Sean Sexton, who seems to be a photo archivist based in Dublin. http://en.wikipedia....:Cairo_gang.jpg and on Getty Images it is credited to Sean Sexton

Sean Sexton has had a number of books published (you can find them on Amazon) and has been known to make amazing discoveries of old photos

At a London antiques market in 1981, Sean Sexton, a photograph collector, discovered some prints of startling originality. Hidden for nearly eighty years, the work of Charles Jones, an "outsider" genius, was saved final obscurity only by this chance encounter

Does not take me any closer to establishing the providence of the photo, but it is interesting!

#34 murrough

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 09:22 PM

Another Cairo Gang photo is attributed to the Piaris Beaslai collection at NLI, its no 39 in the collection

http://hip.nli.ie/ip...deduping=#focus

#35 Broznitsky

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 09:28 PM

I must say I'm finding this "photo detective" thread quite fascinating.

#36 corisande

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Posted 01 June 2010 - 09:32 PM

Stranger and stranger, two lots claiming ownership - Getty Images who say it is part of Sean Sexton collection. And NLI who say it is from Piaris Beaslai collection. As far as I can see they are mutually exclusive in providence.

Here is the background on Piaris Beaslai


Looks as if NLI are the best people for me to take it up with. They have a academic interest rather than a purely commercial.

#37 corisande

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 08:17 AM

There is an article on O'Dea in Irish Time

http://www.irishtime...4266169282.html

It appears to confirm that he has taken the painting of the Cairo Gang from NLI and interpreted it. However he has still used the "heads" of the men in the photo, and has assumed that the photo is genuine.

#38 mhifle

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 09:53 AM

Hi,
Just came across this where it states 1, 2 & 3 are Irish in the picture?

Regards Mark


http://iisresource.o..._Images_NXP.ppt

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#39 corisande

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 10:16 AM

Mark

I have come across a number of mentions of "1, 2 and 3 being Irish". It is as big a load of cobblers as the names allocated randomly in the earlier post here which puts those numbers as Dowing (in fact born London), Price (in fact born London) and Maclean (in fact born London ). I have the references to their births. They were not Irish

There were in fact 3 of the men Irish born - McCormack born Castlebar, Fitzgerald born Tipperary, and Angliss (probably born Dublin, but I cannot find his birth).

Collins papers make it clear that MacCormack was a "mistake" and he had nothing to do with Intelligence. He would therefore not have been expected to be in the "Cairo Gang family photo".

Fitzgerald was in RIC and did not get a CWGC grave, and British Army did not have his photo for ILN article referenced in this thread

Angliss was undoubtedly an undercover officer. he enlisted in Scottish Rifles in 1908 and his place of birth is given in 1911 census as "Balmaine, Co Dublin" which does not exist. I have a thread on Rootschat trying to find it without success. I cannot find his family in 1911 Irish. Nor can I find his father in Enniskillen as on CWGC citation. He does marry as Henry Angliss however (I have not got his MC yet, and probably need it). I suspect that "Henry Angliss " is wrong for his original name, but have not been able to establish what it was. I believe however that he was Irish.

#40 mhifle

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 10:32 AM

Hi,
These look like stills from a film? Rather than the real thing.

Regards Mark

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#41 corisande

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 10:51 AM

Mark

It has got buried in the thread, but murrough gave this reference

http://www.independe...ll-2199762.html

Which is the first photo in your montage. And has been determined to be a still

Sheesh you wonder if any of the War of Independence photos are real!

#42 murrough

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 12:21 PM

I dont think we can write off all WOI photos ,misinformation was disseminated by both sides during a brutal guerrilla war,genuine mistakes could have been made.We need to find out when the NLI aquired the Piaris Beaslai collection and the provenance behind it,I ahve went through the collection as listed online and there seems to be a few photos of identified RIC and Tan/Auxies men,There is no mention of the Cairo Gang men having been named.We still dont know who named the men in the photo.Piaris Beaslai was a cousin of Lily Mernin who was a mole for Michael Collins in the British HQ in Dublin Castle and identified under cover British agents to Collin's men on the street.Did she have contact with Piaris Beaslai ? Could she be the source of the photos in the collection?Obviously this is only supposition on my part,I will have to see what the NLI have to say.
With reference to Mark's posting there are researchers who say the nickname "Cairo Gang" came from the alleged meetings the men had in a cafe called the Cairo in Dublin.
Regards,
Murrough.

#43 corisande

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 12:27 PM

1. I sent a fully referenced email to NLI this morning, and await a reply (if they do not reply I will approach Prof Townshend)

2. Nobody knows what the origin is of Cairo, everything read is speculation. There is no definitive lead that I have seen saying who dreamed it up, or indeed even the year in which the phrase was first used



#44 murrough

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 12:47 PM

Good Corisande I will await what the NLI have to say.There is one thing that is puzzling me though, what have official British records have to say about the Cairo Gang, are they in the public domain yet?is there a 100 year rule concerning them,was there ever a mention of the photo in any official capacity by any British body?

I was just mentioning the other source of the alleged name for balance,I think we all know they did'nt get the name from wearing arab robes and fezzes while undercover in Dublin.
Regards,
Murrough.

#45 corisande

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Posted 02 June 2010 - 06:06 PM

I have had a couple of replied from NLI

NLI tell me that they are aware of the problems with the Lt Price shooting photo, and that their man spotted it first anyway.

They are descending to the archives as the originals are apparently glass plates (that in itself should have alerted them to the Price shooting photo being wrong) to look again at Cairo Gang

Once an examination has been made they will let me know if they still stand by the designation of the Cairo Gang Photo or not.

#46 corisande

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 10:36 AM

Update from NLI says

"The photograph is part of the Piaris Beaslai Collection, acquired in 1966 from the executors of his estate. The photograph was acquired in an envelope marked Cairo Gang "F" Coy Aux. I have not seen the London Illustrated News that you mention, but for the moment we will not be changing the catalogue record."

I have asked them to cross-check with the Getty negative to see if they a have a different negative, or that they are copies of the same thing. Problem is that the person dealing with this is leaving dept there today. So I will have to take it up again with a new person. So I need to gather more evidence

What is interesting is that snippet about F Coy Aux. That is where a misidentification has occurred to link F coy Aux with the "Bloody Sunday " murders.

Can anyone help with A Coy Aux, I may put up another post under Ireland to see if I can get a specialist in Aux, or perhaps someone here can give me a forum reader to PM, as they will not necessarily be reading this thread.

#47 murrough

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 11:19 AM

I got the same reply from the NLI.

#48 corisande

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 11:24 AM

They then emailed me back to say that they do not actually have the negative. Whether Getty have it or not, I do not know.

Has anyone got the NLI photo that they can either post here or PM me (not the more ubiquitous Getty photo)

#49 murrough

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 11:39 AM

Is there any indication when Getty aquired their image?without the negative will the origins be hard to determine?

Regards,
murrough.

#50 corisande

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Posted 04 June 2010 - 11:46 AM

I have not emailed Getty yet - I would assume, perhaps wrongly, that they do not wish to devalue a photo which is worth good money to them.

NLI are more likely to have that clout. But first I need to gather information on F Coy.

Getty ascribe it to the modern Sean Sexton, a Dublin collect of old photos. I assume he found it in his searches in skips in London, and sold it to them! He has supplied Getty Images with 725 old photos

Interestingly Getty date it at 1 Jan 1920, which is before the unit who conducted the intelligence was actually set up. ie the men who were murdered on 21 Nov 1920 were by and large doing other jobs on 1 Jan 1920