159 replies to this topic

[corisande]

I have now tracked down a photo of the man who, on theory, should be number 3 on the Cairo Gang photo.

Problem is it is taken 22 years after the Cairo Gang. So it is virtually impossible to say if it is the same man or not.

[murrough]

Its hard to say if its the same man, they don't look similar around the eyes,What is his name?
Regards,
             Murrough.

[murrough]

I am not having any luck finding any photos of F co.Please look at post #11 at this link http://irishconstabulary.com/reply/527/t/R...vision-RIC.html   and look at the man in centre standing at back,he does bear a resemblance to No.3 in the Cairo photo.
Regards,
             Murrough.

[corisande]

"Does he does bear a resemblance to No.3 in the Cairo photo."



Problem is that the various photos are so small that it is very difficult to say. The man taken in 1942 is William Lorraine King, sometime commander of F Coy.

Following his court-martial for the murders of Kennedy and Murphy, he was transferred to command of "D" Company, in Galway. You don't know do you what were the murders he was involved in there do you,

[murrough]

Sorry Corisande, I dont,but I have asked a couple of acquaintances who are more versed in the WOI than I, but with the school exams starting and the sun shining it might be a few days before I get a reply.

[wig]

The following link to the Irish Times features some recent paintings of the period including a painting of the Cario Gang

http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http:/...L2ONYmZOKGN9dUH

[corisande]

Thanks for the link, but I have come across it before - the painting is in fact just a "painting of the photograph"

In other words the artist has given life to the existing photo, but has not actually done any research on the Cairo Gang - if the photo is not the Cairo Gang, then his painting is not them either.

I like his painting though !

[murrough]

King does not appear to be linked to any murders in Galway,one of the people I contacted suggested he may be mentioned in "Sword For Hire" a memoir by Douglas V.Duff an  RIC member who was stationed in Galway during the WOI,as far as he can recall it may be connected to incidents the night Lt.Souchon was killed in Galway.I'm afraid I don't have the book or access to it so I can't confirm details,I think it was published in the 30's.Duff went on to hold a senior position in the Palestine Police as did quite a number of former ADRIC men,do you know where King went after the WOI?
By the way I was reading the older threads and saw where another forum member mentioned to you that  the photo was in Richard Bennett's  book "The black and Tans" first published in the late 50's where he states  that it was a group of Intelligence Officers known to the IRA as 'the murder gang'. The photograph was taken in Lower castle Yard, and it fell into the hands of the IRA.Bennett was a former British Army officer so there they may be some credence in his assertions,either way I was just wondering if you explored this avenue.
Regards,
             murrough.

[corisande]

Hi

Thanks for the thoughts

This is his acquittal



I have tried to find what he was known for in Galway. The link I was given to me before of "dance hall" murders in Galway, led me too to the Souchan case
But I can find no mention of him there


People have looked for me in Lower Castle Yard, but the location of the photo has not, as far as I know, been found

King got divorced in 1926, and rejoined the army in WW2, buried in War Grave in would you believe Palestine, so may have been in police there.

[corisande]

Found a reference to King in Galway on the web, I have come across others. As yet I cannot determine if King was involved, or whether he is linked because he was in command of the Ancillary company in Galway

The night of murders in Galway city, the conflict at the dance hall which involved the notorious Major William Lorraine ''Tiny'' King during the truce and the murder of the Loughnane brothers, the sack of Tuam stand out among many. Duff himself wrote in 'Sword for Hire' (his life as a paid mercenary) of his time in the Maam valley,

I probably need to get hold of Duff's book as well

[mhifle]

Hi,
    He is on the Army List
Regards Mark

28 Nov 1917
2nd SOUTH AFRICAN INFANTRY. (Natal and Orange Free State Regiment),
Lieutenant
*King W L, MC 12 Oct16  (has War service)

28 Nov 1918
2nd SOUTH AFRICAN INFANTRY. (Natal and Orange Free State Regiment),
Lieutenant
*King, W. L., M.C.  D.C.M. (Acting Capt. 30 June18) 12 Oct.16 (has War service0

[murrough]

King got away with a lot and while he was one the most notorious murderers in the ADRIC ,he was not involved in the murder of the Loughnanes which happened in Nov.1920 or the murder of  Father Michael Griffin by the ADRIC in the same month,King was in Dublin castle at the time involved in the murder of 3 unarmed prisioners,  Clancy,Clune,and McKee,but I think he was aquitted in that case as well.I would speculate that King was sent to Galway after his second aquittal in 1921 to get him out of the way,he was probably becoming a liability to the ADRIC and Galway was pretty quite and they probably hoped he would keep his head down.
On another note I think its a shame that Lieut.Souchon 17th Lancers is not commemorated on the CWGC but as I understand it the cut-off date was 31/8/1921.
Regards,
              Murrough.

There is a good site here which includes some contributions from fellow forum members, well worth a read.

http://www.warofindependence.net/

[gaelgoir]

I have now had the opportunity to view the Beaslai collection of photographs.   There are 130  about half of which are family photos.  The photo of the Cairo Gang is accompanied by an envelope marked "special gang F company Auxillaries".   The most plausable location for the photo from an examination of Dublin Castle is an alleyway just inside and to the right as you enter the Dame Street Gate.  The buildings in the background have been rebuilt but the perspective is similar.  This location is only 100 feet from the guardroom at Exchange Street beside the City Hall where Clancy, Clune and McKee were murdered by the Auxilliaries on the Saturday night before Bloody Sunday. Their killers claimed that they were "shot while trying to escape". There are three more photos of Auxillaries in the collection,   one with men standing on and about an armoured car, the other two have the men on trucks. These three photos are without doubt taken in Dublin Castle. In all of the photos the men are numbered in a fashion and hand similar to the "Cairo" photograph.  The envelopes are marked in the same hand.   There are about twenty other photos of agents and police in the collection.   Some of the portraits are accompanied by envelopes addressed to the person in the photo from a studio photographer.   This indicates that they result from interception of mail. The subject in the photos did not pose for an IRA intelligence photographer deliberately.  I have not been able to verify the names on the Cairo Photo  as given by tonybradley40.  Many Auxillaries were shot in Dublin in the 1920s and it is probable that they were "made" using this series of photos. It would be useful to have a roll call of F company and its casualties and perhaps pursue the other photos to see if they too were used to set up executions.  I believe that F company and their armoured car were involved in the shooting into the crowd at Croke Park on the afternoon of Bloody Sunday and if this is indeed the case they would have been definite targets for execution. Fourteen people died in that reprisal including  aplayer on the field. Details about Piaras Beaslai are on wikipedia.  As an older Republican who fought in 1916 he might have been engaged in intelligence himself .

[gaelgoir]

I have a photo of the most plausable  location of the photo of the special gang of F company in Dublin castle as described but cannot up load it file eithe being too big or type not recognised (microsoft photo)   I have little doubt that this location is correct. the roadway has been raised about three feet and buildings in background rebuilt but location is correct, I believe.   These agents did not expect their photo would fall into teh hands of teh "paddies" who they intended to assinate and despised. They posed just as the auxilliaries in the other three photos.

[corisande]

I have sent you a PM with my email address, is you send me the photo my email, I think I can upload it here OK

[corisande]

Thanks for the photo Gaelgoir, I have put it beside the traditional Cairo Gang for comparison





I assume you mean the alley at bottom-centre of this overhead shot

Gaelgoir's comments are

The most plausable location for the photo from an examination of Dublin Castle is an alleyway just inside and to the right as you enter the Dame Street Gate. The buildings in the background have been rebuilt but the perspective is similar. This location is only 100 feet from the guardroom at Exchange Street beside the City Hall where Clancy, Clune and McKee were murdered by the Auxiliaries on the Saturday night before Bloody Sunday

The ridge on the building is below the line of the photo and the window and decoration on the corner are correct. The perspective of the background is correct but those buildings have been renewed.

I guess that there have been so many changes in that area, that it is very difficult to be sure.

My own feeling at the moment is that the photo is genuine, in that it really was taken in Dublin Castle, and was leaked to the IRA by the usual channels. But it really does not have anything to do with Bloody Sunday and the deaths of British officers then. The evidence is that it was an F Coy ADRIC photos - but information on F Coy is difficult to come by.

[corisande]

gaelgoir sent me some more photos, s here is a chance to compare the Beaslai Collection print with the Hutton Collection one. As far as I know the negative is missing, but the two prints of what appears to be the same negative exist in the two different archives.

What is interesting is that the same numbering is given to both, but in a different hand. It would indicate that the men were identified, but we are no nearer knowing who they were, or who they worked for.



And I just noticed a pair of bodyless legs behind no.5

[Dez]

gaelgoir,

Good photograph of the Treasury building in the Lower Castle Yard, presumably the alley in the other photograph is the one directly behind this building, strange spot for a photo shoot, unless it was picked for a purpose.      As "F" Company had their barracks in the Lower Castle Yard, do you know which building they were located in.

Dez

[corisande]

...killed on Bloody Sunday. A month before Francis Christian was killed in Talbot Street at the same time as Sean Treacy and a few days earler Major Smythe and White were killed at Fernside when Sean Treacy and Dan Breen escaped but Professor Carolan was killed as a reprisal.

from post #3 by gaelgoir

I have been researching the Carolan Raid, and was wondering what grounds you have for  "killed as a reprisal". I have not been able to find anything to substantiate that.

In fact poor John Carolan seems largely ignored by history, virtually nothing has been written about him. For what it is worth, I have read the complete court of inquiry report. I feel that in all probability Carolan was shot twice, once through the door by Breen and Treacy and a second time by the British officer questioning him when he was wounded.

I have also read Jeune's account in British Voices. And have the Times reports

Certainly the British are not saying they shot him, that surmise comes from putting Jeunes account beside the Court of Inquiry Report.. And there were no IRA men present in the house (Breen and Treacy escaped)

What I am looking for are reliable witness reports.

[Carmania]

This is how T Ryle Dwyer in his book about Collins recounts it:

'Major Gerald Smyth, a brother of of the one armed colonel shot in Cork on 18 July, had returned from the Middle East to avenge the death od his brother. It was rumoured that he had been killed by Dan Breen. So when Winter's people learned that Breen and Sean Tracey were spending the night of 11 October at the Drumcondra home of Professor John Carolan, Smyth was selected to lead the raiding party.
They burst into the house, but Smyth and a colleague were killed when Breen and Tracy shot blindly through their bedroom door before making a run for it. Although hit himself, Breen still managed to get away. He went up to a house at random and asked for help as he collapsed on the doorstep.
'I don't approve of gunmen,' he heard the man of the house reply, 'I shall call the military.'
'If you do I'll report you to Michael Collins,' came a woman's voice from inside the house. The threat obviously worked because the word was passed to the IRA and Breen was collected and taken to the Mater Hospital, where doctors and nurses colluded to to hide his identity and the nature of his wounds.
Another patient was Professor Carolan whom the raiding party had up against the wall and shot in the head; he died of his wounds but not before making a full death-bed statement about what had happened. Tracy had escaped unscathed from Drumcondra only to be shot dead a few days later.'

There is a report in the New York Times of 13th October 1920, the Manchester Guardian of the 13th, 19th 28th October and 11th November.

Aled

[murrough]

My own feeling at the moment is that the photo is genuine, in that it really was taken in Dublin Castle, and was leaked to the IRA by the usual channels. But it really does not have anything to do with Bloody Sunday and the deaths of British officers then. The evidence is that it was an F Coy ADRIC photos - but information on F Coy is difficult to come by.

It would indicate that the men were identified, but we are no nearer knowing who they were, or who they worked for.

Do you now think they are not F Coy ADRIC photos?

[corisande]

Do you now think they are not F Coy ADRIC photos?

What I am trying to get way from here is what you or I (or anyone else!) might "think" - what I am trying to get is evidence that would lead you, me, and (even) a cynic to agree that the "Cairo Gang" were (or were not) F Coy

M own feeling (for what it is worth) is that they are F Coy

[corisande]

Another patient was Professor Carolan whom the raiding party had up against the wall and shot in the head; he died of his wounds but not before making a full death-bed statement about what had happened.

Does anyone know if this statement actually exists - rather than being an urban legend

I have read the court of inquiry evidence - pages of it - and it is clear that Carolan was first shot by a bullet from Breen or Treacy firing through the door of their room. Carolan was then taken downstairs and "questioned" roughly. To extract information about the inhabitants of his upstairs room. Nothing is mentioned in the court of inquiry about a second shot

However Jeune, one of the raiding party, later wrote that he heard a single shot and that there was an "unfortunate accident" in which Carolan was shot (a second time)

Problem with newspaper articles is that both the British and the Irish were putting out so much spin that it is difficult to separate truth from fiction. Hence the original documents like a statement by Carolan in the hospital are better. But not if it is a third party report like "Prof Carolan told an IRA reporter that the British put him against a wall and shot him"

Even today so much prejudice on both sides who believe that the other lot were devils incarnate, and their lot were as white as the driven snow. The truth, or their perception of it, gets a bit fuzzy

[murrough]

The questions about the Carolan incident may not be resolved satisfactorily,even a death bed statment signed  by Carolan himself would not be adequate for some people as proof.Some would say that as he was a  republican sympathiser he was going to blame the British forces.To others the court of inquiry report would also be an "Urban myth" or "Whitewash" as no british intelligence officer was going to incriminate himself or a fellow officer.Jeune may be the only one who was wlling to divulge part of the  truth
with his  reference to an accidental shooting and a second shot,but then again he was not going to implicate himself or his  colleauges in a murder, so maybe this was as far as he was willing to go.A post mortem report if available would bring a bit more clarity as it should reveal how many times Carolan was shot.

Problem with newspaper articles is that both the British and the Irish were putting out so much spin that it is difficult to separate truth from fiction. Hence the original documents like a statement by Carolan in the hospital are better. But not if it is a third party report like "Prof Carolan told an IRA reporter that the British put him against a wall and shot him

What type of original documents would suffice and what type of reporter and from what paper would you consider reliable?

Even today so much prejudice on both sides who believe that the other lot were devils incarnate, and their lot were as white as the driven snow. The truth, or their perception of it, gets a bit fuzzy

I agree, as someone whose ancestors included Republicans during the WOI,British Army members in WW1,WW2,NI,Blueshirts in the 30's(the worst insult is to be called a blueshirt   )and various other shades of the political spectrum,I like to think that I can evaluate thing in an impartial manner as I feel I dont have the political baggage that some others carry when they have both feet almost completely planted in one tradition.
Regards,
             Murrough

[corisande]

I am trying to avoid the general and get at the particular.

In essence where does the report that Carolan was "put against a wall and shot by the British" come from.

Was it Carolan, and if so how do I get a hold of the original statement/report. Ditto for his wife, or anyone else in the house that night who might have made a statement.

What is also odd to me is that Carolan is not marked down in Irish history as a man who gave his life for Ireland. He just seems to have been "forgotten". He gave Treacy and Breen (and presumably others) a Safe house, he put his family at risk, and ultimately paid the price of his life (irrespective of who shot him)