12 replies to this topic

[JohnnyCrawford]

Dear all,
Does anyone have any information on 109th Siege Battery RGA?

I have 2 photos of my GGF, one of which is captioned as "D Sub Section 109 Siege Bty" and is a group photo probably taken prior to deployment. The other is of my GGF looking rather more weather beaten next to a shell and in front of the standard ivy covered wall.

Other than that I have no information. Acording to my GF, my GGF had been a signaller for a forward observer and that he had ended up getting gassed on the Somme. He recovered and is alledged to have been at Etaples at the time of the mutiny before going back to the front and being gassed again. He survived the war but had chest problems for the rest of his life. Of course I have no way of verifying this information as my GF died in 1991. I did look on the WW1 medal rolls and there are about 5 Thomas Spencer's in the RGA but none mentions the 109th Bty. so it is probable he went to another Bty after being gassed.  

Any information would be a great help to flesh out the family story,

Regards,
Johnny.

[kevrow]

Was he born at Low Hartforth, Yorshire?

Kevin

[JohnnyCrawford]

Was he born at Low Hartforth, Yorshire?

Kevin

Hi Kevin,
I don't know for definite but I believe he was  - My grandfather was born in Richmond, Yorkshire and quite close by. I take it you have info on him then?

Johnny

[kevrow]

There are a few pages for 61872 Thomas Spencer on the "Pension"records on Ancestry. He started his military career at No.1 Depot, Fort Burgoyne, Dover, on 28 October 1915 and discharged, to Class Z Reserve, on the 13 February 1919. He was hospitalised between 27 July 1916 and 29 September 1916 for gas poisoning and heart condition. There is no record of unit served in. If he was born in 1890 then this could be your gt. grandfather. Knowing when he enlisted would help to say which one he is, if this is not him.

Kevin

[JohnnyCrawford]

Hi Kev - apologies for the delay in thanking you but I have been away.
I have checked on my GGF's birth year and it is 1890 though we have him as being born in Startforth near Barnard Castle. However the rough bio you give above fits in with the family legend so it is likely that this individual is GGF.

Assuming this is, do you know what 109th Siege Bty was doing (I assume as part of the Somme offensive) on or about 27th July 1916?

Thanks,
JC

[kevrow]

I'm fairly confident that 61872 Thomas Spencer is your GGF. Born at Low Startforth, Yorkshire. You are also lucky that what diary does exist covers the time you are interested in. This can only be viewed at the Nat. Archives, and can be found under WO 95/473;  http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalog...;accessmethod=0  .

Kevin

[JohnnyCrawford]

Kevin,
Thank you so much. I'm off to Kew soon to do some research for my Masters dissertation on a WW2 site - the research on my GGF was really a by product of this. However I'll make time to look at the 109th war diary.

Once again, thanks very much (if GWF had a reputation system like WW2 Talk, I'd give you an e-pat on the back!).

Johnny.

[ororkep]

JC,
On the 23-7-1916, the diary for 109 records, when the battery position was given as FRICOURT:
“Enemy gas attacks were nullified by the vigilance of Battery use of Gas Helmets and respirators. One gunner admitted to hospital/ gas poisoning.”
There is no way of telling if this is referring to your GF, but it is the only reference to a hospital case that week. I can also tell you that 61872 Thomas Spencer was a serving 109 SB gunner, confirmed by his medal roll entry, so Kevin is correct.
The rest of the events of that week for 109 Sge Bty were rather overshadowed by the death of their Major, three Lieutenants and two gunners on the 24th from hostile shell fire. One of those subalterns was a 2/Lieut Cox, a pre war regular only just commissioned two weeks before from the ranks, having previously served with 81 SB.
The shellfire made the position untenable and forced the battery to shift their position “300 yards lower down nearer Fricourt and to the left”.
A Captain and another Lieutenant were also killed through shellfire on the 29th  and a Lieut severely wounded, accounting for practically all their Officers. A Captain from 24 SB was brought in to take over command, along with another Captain from 61 SB and two subalterns, one from 40 SB and the other from siege park. The new Captain records “owing to destruction by shellfire no details of bombardments can be given, operation orders all being destroyed.. Hence only 10 pages official war diary survive for the whole of their Somme participation.
Rgds Paul

[JohnnyCrawford]

ororkep,
Fantastic information! Thanks to you too. Might have saved me some time at Kew!

Just to add personality to the information here are the photos. Sorry about the quality but I'm no photographer (or perhaps too impatient to wait for good light!)

D Sub Section D sub sect

Gunner Thomas Spencer Thos Spencer

In the Section photo my GGF is second row from top, second from right smoking a pipe. He looks rather older in the single photo and it may well have been taken sometime after his first gassing.

Cheers,
Johnny.

Edit - I have just remembered that my GF told me the only reason my GGF survived his first gassing was that he fell face down in a shellhole and being mostly insensible had all the vomit and fluid in his chest drained out by gravity - not sure if its true but it might (as well as probably strained medical chains) explain the 4 day delay before hospitalization.

[JohnnyCrawford]

Dear all,
Any idea what type of ordnance 109th Siege Battery was equipped with?
Cheers

[ororkep]

Johnny

They were armed with 4 x 6 in Hows (26 cwt); a mechanised battery.
I have no evidence they were ever made upto 6 guns

Rgds Paul

[JohnnyCrawford]

Johnny

They were armed with 4 x 6 in Hows (26 cwt); a mechanised battery.
I have no evidence they were ever made upto 6 guns

Rgds Paul

Cheers Paul - great stuff again! May I ask if all your info regarding the 109th is from Kew or another source? Theres almost nothing I can find online about them at all - I can't even work out the HAG at the moment.
JC

[Stoppage Drill]

Three and a half years on, I come to this topic. My information now must necessarily be tenuous, but here goes.

As may have become apparent to anybody who has read any of my posts, I am somewhat long in the tooth, and followed an interest in the Great War when it was not a common thing to do. For me, one of the turning points which helped to generate a wider interest was the publication of Martin Middlebrook's  "First Day on the Somme" in 1970. He included a still from the Malins film in the illustrations, showing a soldier in shirtsleeves piggy backing a casualty along a trench towards the camera. It's now a very famous image.

At some subsequent point in time, possibly in the 1980's, I noted that the rescuer was Dvr Tom Spencer, RGA. The source was a letter from his daughter in the D Telegraph.

I can't give any more detail than this. Over to the experts !