19 replies to this topic

[Aurel Sercu]

A month or so ago I opened a Topic in Insignia, Equipment etc hoping that someone would recognize the cap badge of a man I am doing research on, who was R.N.V.R., but from Oct. 1914 on was attached to the 6th Division (until he was reported missing on 9/10 June 1916).

So far no result, even after I posted a somewhat better close-up of the badge some days ago. (Provided by Forum member Michael P.)

This is the original topic
http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...howtopic=115609

And below is the close up of the badge.

Forum member Michael advised me to give it another try in this section, where it may find a different (more Navy focussed) audience. I'm sure soon it will appear that this was a very good idea !  

Aurel

Attached Files

•  Badge_Michael_P.jpg   7.85K   2 downloads

[per ardua per mare per terram]

The badge is far too bluured for me to make out.
There is a paper index of RM officers in the open access rooms at Kew.
His service cards for the RND are online:
Name  Smith, Cyril Aldin
Rank or Rating:  Second Lieutenant, Honorary Second Lieutenant, Sub Lieutenant, Temporary Lieutenant
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1
There is also a record for him in the RNVR:
Description Name  Smith, Cyril Aldin
Date 1894-1922
Catalogue reference ADM 337/119  
http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/documen...p;resultcount=1

[Aurel Sercu]

Per ardua,

Thanks for your reply.
Yes, of course, the badge is very blurred indeed. (But it's the best of the 3 (identical) pics we have.) I just thought that may somewhere somehow someone who happens to be very familiar with that badge might exclaim : "Yes, of course ! This is badge X !" But I guess am being a little too optimistic.
Thanks for the 2 links. I knew about them, but somehow hesitated to buy, because I think they may not contain anything that I do not know yet.

If only there was a webpage with drawings or photos of RM badges ...  

Aurel

[Bootnecks]

Aurel.. There is no way your chap could be in the RM's, for my avitar is for that corps. From studying the original thread for this cap badge, it seems that you have two options.
1) The School of Musketry.
2) The York and Lancaster Regiment.

Both of the cap badges I have illustrated below.

Seph

Attached Files

•  School_of_musketry.jpg   19.72K   0 downloads
•  eab5_1.jpg   58.21K   0 downloads

[Aurel Sercu]

Seph,

Thanks for your posting.
Don't know about the School of Musketry badge ...
The Y&L badge is one I know (we found some on a battlefield nearby, Boezinge), but that brings me to a certain question (not specifically to you, but to all).

My man was RNVR, but attached from Oct 1914 on to the 6th Division, and was at the front.
I know that the uniform on the photo is not Navy.
Hence : could it be possible that his badge is not RM or RNVR, but the badge of a 6th Division  regiment ?
There are about a dozen that qualify in the 3 brigades, and a sar as I see none of them really match. Maybe Y&L ? (2nd Bn. Y&L was in the 6th Division, but I'm not sure if the one photo you posted is the same)

Cyril A. Smith was at the front, and I guess that he was part of this or that battalion from time to time, but I suppose that this changed all the time. (I know that he led a 2nd Durham Light Infantry patrol, and a  9th Norfolk patrol at a given time, but there must have been others too. Anyway, the badge certainly is not DLI of Norfolks.

So my question is : is it possible that this RNVR man attached to 6th Division had an Army cap badge (on the photo), or is this simply unthinkable, and did he, even when wearing khaki, keep a RM badge ?

(Sorry if this is a silly question.)

Aurel

[Bootnecks]

Aurel

You've posed a couple of good questions there, but forget the RM link. There is no similarity to any badge of that corps. Incidentally, are you certain that the original photo is WW1? I have a feeling that its more WW2 than WW1. Something about the style of uniform, especially around the neck and collar that does not look quite right.. 1930's Tunic per chance? The shirt actually looks like the heavy WW2 Khaki version!

Also, there are no uniform collar badges (collar dogs), which leads me to believe this chap ws not an officer. Are you certain that you have the correct photograph, for nothing seems to match the information that you have on the chap himself. RNVR..  not this chap..  he's army but not of officer ranking.

Seph

[Aurel Sercu]

Seph,

Yes, I am sure this is WW1. The man died in June 1916, and I have 3 photo's (identical) : 2 from The Graphic (April and August 1916, and 1 from London Illustrated News, July 1916.

I can't say anything about the uniform myself, but let me repeat what Dave "Croonaert" wrote a while ago :

***

It certainly is an odd cap. The rest of the uniform appears correct (RN braid would be worn on the cuffs, but "Army style" ranking systems can also be encountered) as he would have been wearing "army" uniform considering his role. The cap is what gets me though - if not a naval pattern peaked cap, then a khaki cap with navy blue cap band was usually worn - with the RN cap badge (or the battalion badge for RND). This cap appears "all army", but with an odd badge that doesn't really resemble any linked RN badge (unless it's simply been "smudged" for publication).

So far Dave's words.

***

And let me end with another silly question : If this RNVR man is not wearing an RM badge, and if the cap badge he is wearing is not one of the dozen or so Regiments that were in the 6th Division (the division he was attached to), do any other badges qualify ? I mean : what badge could a man have, being 6th Division, but not one of the Bns. in the 3 brigades?

Aurel

[horatio2]

Bootnecks raises a very good point.  There is no question about this man's service in RM and RNVR but are you certain of the identity of the man in the photograph?

[Aurel Sercu]

Horatio2,

Am I certain of the identity of the man in the photograph ?

Well, you gave me a fright !  ;-)  And I don't know what to say I'm afraid. I had never thought of that possibility.

Except that now that I think of it, I am not certain. This is the only photo we have, but it was published 3 times in 2 different magazines, with the name (and there were more than 3 months between Photos 1 and 3). And this was related to his DSO Award, something not unimportant I would say ...

But true, we have no other photos of the man (neither civilian nor military), and  nothing was found in the family photo albums to compare, so we cannot be 100 % sure.
But maybe 99 % ?

Aurel (sighing       )

[michaeldr]

There is no question about this man's service in RM and RNVR but are you certain of the identity of the man in the photograph?

Reluctantly, I am going with Bootnecks and H2
When you have exhausted all other possibilities then...
perhaps the snap is not of this man at all???????????


regards
Michael


ps: Our posts have crossed Aurel

[Aurel Sercu]

OK, the cap badge certainly is a problem, I agree.
But wouldn't the conclusion that this man on the photo must be someone else be a little too premature or farfetched ? (Can't find the word I would like to find...)

Publishing the photo of an officer awarded the DSO three times, and using the wrong photo certainly would be a serious mistake, and maybe one that would have been corrected after 3 months ?

But I will think about it.
And spend a white night.  

Aurel

[Bootnecks]

wouldn't the conclusion that this man on the photo must be someone else be a little too premature or farfetched ?

Aurel

In answer...
What one needs to consider and research is.. what source provided the original photograph.. War Office, Family? How many publications used the same photograph? Mistakes do happen, especially if the mans Surname or initials are missunderstood, and appear similar to that of another rank whos photograph is held by an official agency! As has already been mentioned, the mans service record is not in question or doubted. Its the actual photograph being used in connection to the information request that is causing the misinterpretation. The photograph does not match the facts thats are known.

I appreciate that this can be very frustrating for the original enquirer, but it is also very frustrating to the researcher. A simple mistake such as this, even though it may have been an honest mistake which occured at the time of the original awards notification, can lead one far away from the required information, which could be right at ones hand.

Have you tried this little test... is there any family resemblance from todays family members to the chap in the photograph?

Seph

[Aurel Sercu]

1. What source provided the original photograph.. War Office, Family?
2. How many publications used the same photograph?
3. Mistakes do happen, especially if the mans Surname or initials are missunderstood, and appear similar to that of another rank whos photograph is held by an official agency!
4. The photograph does not match the facts thats are known.
5. Have you tried this little test... is there any family resemblance from todays family members to the chap in the photograph?
Seph

Seph,

I numbered some of your thoughts in the Quote, and this is the reply :

1. I have absolutely no idea.

2. Used by The Graphic on 29 April 1916 (DSO Award) and on 5 August 1916 (7 weeks after his death), and by London Illustrated News 22 July 1916.
(The fact that there are more than 3 months in between made me think : If in April 1916 the wrong photo was used, can't we assume that the family would have protested, and that later in August the correction would have been made, or that the mistake at least would not be repeated ?)

3. Yes, true, "Smith" is a common name, but the middle (?) name "Aldin" may guarantee something ?

4. Well, that is a problem indeed. You have some doubts about the tunic, thinking at first sight that it may be WW2. But as we know that the photos were published in 1916 I think we can rule that out.
The only (?) problem we have is the cap and the badge ? I would like to hear other members' opinions ... About the tunic and the cap and badge. Does the fact that it does not resemble a RN or RNVR badge "prove" that something is wrong with the identity of the man on the photo ? Is it totally impossible that this RNVR man, attached to 6th Division, wore an "Army" badge ?

5. Well, I wanted to mention that yesterday, but of course this is very subjective. I am in touch with Cyril Aldin Smith's great nephew Graham. As soon as I sent him the photo, his reaction was : "Yes, it is Cyril. He has the Smith mouth of determination and obstinacy and I can see the likeness to Uncle Gordon [= Cyril's younger brother]."

I will be seeing great-nephew Graham a month from now, and maybe my first reaction will be : "You and Cyril ! Like two peas in a pod !!!"  

Aurel

[Egypt]

I’m certainly not an expert on the subject, but as I understand it, our man Smith was rushed out to France, not because of his military acumen, but rather the fact that he had his own vehicle and transport was desperately needed at the time for Winston’s Little Army. The full portrait photo looks to me like a studio shot presumably taken in England in 1914 and so it may have been that Smith (having only ‘honorary’ RM rank at the time) didn’t receive a full kit issue before his embarkation for the Continent. It might even be that he’s wearing his old school or university OTC cap badge (rather than having nothing to display).
Correct me if I’m wrong, but weren’t the RND motor drivers (some 50 or so people) really just civilians in khaki and therefore it shouldn’t be that surprising to find odd images of them dressed in non-standard/unofficial kit (some of which might have been self-purchased). After all apart from the RMLI, the bulk of the RND sailors didn’t receive their official battalion badges until late in 1916.
Although his transition from civy-street to military life was somewhat unorthodox, Smith was undoubtedly an audacious individual who certainly showed his worth once he got across the Channel. In any case the photo certainly doesn't depict a 'pukka' RNVR western front officer.
Yours Aye,
Michael

[Aurel Sercu]

Thanks, Michael, for your interesting posting.
Also because you appear to confirm some of the things I had had in mind too, but was a little too afraid to express them, being no expert at all regarding uniforms, and certainly not RM or RNVR (this is the very first time in years that I have to deal with this in my research).
Yes, the transition from civilian to military life was a little unorthodox, but then Cyril Aldin Smith himself, in civilian life, was pretty unorthodox too, I can assure you. And he sure was an audacious chap too !

Aurel

[synchronome]

Dear Aurel and fellow forum members,

I am a newbie to this forum, and I am here only through finding the references to Cyril Aldin Smith on the wider web, and therefore wanted to make direct contact. I am currently engaged on writing the official history of the Smith Group, to be published in 2014, the centenary of the first listing of Smiths, just before the outbreak of the Great War. The Smiths Group is in the FTSE 100 these days, and is the surviving entity of the Smiths Group that made millions of clocks and instruments in the twentieth century. Its origins date back to the first Samuel Smith establishing a jewellers in Newington Causeway in 1851. It played a major role in the supply of instrument, fuses etc in both world wars. Cyril Aldin Smith was a son of Samuel Smith junior, and brother to Sir Allan Gordon-Smith, who was important in the Ministry of Aircraft Production in the second war. I am presently pulling together a lot of the biographical material on the Smiths family (and the Aldin family with which it was linked through two important marriages) and I would very much appreciate the opportunity to be in direct touch to share information.

With kind regards,

Dr James Nye
Institute of Contemporary British History
King's College London
james.nye@kcl.ac.uk

[KizmeRD]

Having just read A short History of the 6th Division (Ed. Thomas Owen Marden) my money on the identity of the unknown cap badge would be that of the Norfolk Regiment, to which Lt. (Admiral) Smith RNVR 'attached himself' (9th Service Bn.).

see extract below (a truly exceptional story)...


A history of the Division would hardly be complete without a short reference to "The Admiral." Many of those who knew and liked him well by that name probably never knew him by any other. Lieut. Smith was an owner driver in charge of a convoy of buses with the Royal Naval Division at Antwerp, whence he escaped to France. In October 1914 he seized the opportunity of an officer requiring to be taken up to join his unit, to make his way with his car to the front. Arrived there he contrived to get himself attached to the 6th Division Headquarters, remaining with them until he was reported missing on the 10th June 1916.
Consumed with a good healthy hatred of the enemy, and keen to be of assistance in any way that he could, he devoted the greater part of the time he was with the Division to experimenting with bullet-proof  shields on wheels to be propelled by manpower, a sort of embryonic tank. His ambition was himself to take the first of these into action. At last he was offered an opportunity of co-operating with a small 3-man pattern in a minor raid near Forward Cottage. What success he might have achieved it is impossible to say, as in his eagerness he preceded the shield by several yards to show the crew the way and was hit in the neck by a splinter from a bomb. The name of Admiral's Road, given to the road past Crossroads Farm and Forward Cottage, commemorates the incident of which it was the scene.
Later "The Admiral" turned his attention to Bangalore torpedoes, in the use of which he trained the unauthorised party which had long existed under the name of the 6th Division Shield Party. With them he took part in many raids and minor enterprises, one of which earned him the D.S.O. On the 10th June he was reported missing from a patrol of the 9th Norfolk Regiment, and nothing has since been heard of him. For nearly two years he contrived to serve voluntarily with the Division, nobody quite knows in what capacity or by what authority, and during that time he endeared himself to all by his unfailing good nature and cheeriness, his whole-hearted enthusiasm and his lack of fear.

[KizmeRD]

Having slept on it, I feel I now want to dis-associate myself from my earlier suggestion of the Norfolk Regiment. Why would an RNVR officer in the RND wear anything other than his proper unit uniform? And in any case the Norfolk Regt. cap badge has a long banner at the bottom, so it isn't as round as the one that appears in the (smudgey) photo.
I'm now starting to believe that the photo of 'Admiral' Smith may have been taken when he was still a member of the OTC at Christ's College, Finchley (which was then affiliated to the Middlesex Regiment, and formerly to the Middlesex Rifle Volunteers)
- I've several reasons for thinging this (the cap, the absence of a Sam Browne Belt and the fact that he isn't wearing any collar dogs all point towards him being an officer cadet at the time that the photo was taken).
Attached below is an image of the former Christ's College OTC cap badge of the period, could this be the identity of the mystery cap badge? (Frustratingly, still not convinced I'm any more right than when I started pondering this enigma).
Michael

Attached Files

•  middlesex regiment.jpg   8.47K   0 downloads

[Aurel Sercu]

Hi James (Synchronome),

Just to say that after your PM I have just seen (sorry, I was away for a week) I will contact you as soon as I can, after reopening this piece of research that indeed I started 4 years ago, mid 2008. But unfortunately never really finished...

(The reason of my interest : I had always been intrigued by the name "Admiral's Road" on the trench maps in my village (Boezinge, near Ypres, present name of the road is Moortelweg), which as it appeared in my research, was named after "Admiral" Cyril Aldin Smith. So I got in touch with his great-nephew Graham and also met him here, in Admiral's Road)

Aurel

[KizmeRD]

Aurel,
I'm so glad that  your 4 year quest has at least provided some satisfaction, it must have been nice to meet his relatives and exchange what knowledge you have.
These owner/driver volunteers were small band of very interesting characters - I presume you have read the booklet issued by the RAC which I think was entitled 'On Imperial Service', or something like that. There was also a book by another owner/driver which (again from memory) I think was entitled 'With French at the Front'.
From accounts that I have read, the RAC volunteers were initially issued with field uniform, but without any badges.
This caused concerns that if captured they might be deemed to be spies, so it could be that they unofficially wore cap badges related to the units that the were involved with. Later, after becoming RNVR, I would presume that Smith would have worn pukka RND uniform .
In any case, Smith was certainly an exceptional man, and appears to have been very well liked by his adopted army Division.
Hopefully one day, more of the story will emerge (although time tends to work in the opposite direction).

Mchael