30 replies to this topic

[Rockdoc]

I recently copied the War Diaries for some of the AA Sections in Salonika and I've come across an unexpected records of signals in 98th AAS's Diary for "Argyll AA Gun". 98th AAS's Diary is extremely vague and doesn't give any detail to speak of, unfortunately, but I've managed to work out they were based near Guvesne on the Serres road.

That isn't an indication that the Argyll's were close to Guvesne. It was normal for any aircraft sightings to be passed on to the British and French Signals HQs to their AA units and aircraft squadrons but it's much more common for the signals to come from Brigade or Divisional HQs than from individual units outside the AA organisation. To have records of a number of reports from this Argyll Gun is highly unusual and I'm intrigued. I'd think that this would have been an improvised AA gun but it was clearly well-enough respected to be allowed to send in reports in its own right.

Although 98th's Diary is always vague, it had changed its way of recording the place where the plane was sighted by this time. Initially, the place-name was recorded but, by early 1918, this had been replaced by Areas. Entries from the Argyll AA Gun are generally Area V but I have no idea where that is.

Any Argyll experts able to help?

Keith

Attached Files

•  IMG_2286_extract.jpg   34.31K   2 downloads

[apwright]

Perhaps it means the Argyll Mountain Battery of IV Highland Mountain Bde RGA, who arrived in Salonika on 10/8/16 and stayed through to the end. According to the Official History they were armed with four 2.75-inch guns and were attached to XVI Corps. The latest mention of them in the OH is in Oct 1917 when they were in the Struma Valley covering the attack on Homondos.

Adrian

[Rockdoc]

It's possible, Adrian, but there were Battalions of the A&S Highlanders there, too, of course and it's conceivable that the reference is to a MG AA unit run by the infantry. 74th AAS were at Homondos and Dimitrac from late 1917 - presumably guarding Marian RFC Base. 98th went to XVIth Division as their AAS in mid-May 1918. The extract in the first post was from February 1918.

Keith

[kevrow]

Mike would be the one to ask.

See post 18; http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...c=116601&hl  .

Kevin

[Rockdoc]

Indeed, Kevin. The photo he published in that thread could well be the gun we're discussing. Thanks for the pointer.

Keith

[CSMMo]

Somehow I missed this thread, but replied to Keith in a PM. The location of the Argyll Mountain gun that was detached for AA duty in Feb 1918 is documented in their WD.  Particulars sent to Keith.

Mike Morrison

[Rockdoc]

Thanks, Mike. The information was most useful. To round out this thread, Mike tells me that this Gun was located at Nigrita. I've noted the name in other Diaries as a source of signals but it's only called "Argyll AA Gun" in 98th's Diary. In fact that's only partly true. At the time, 98th's Guns were on separate sites and were keeping their own Diaries. The reference only occurs in B Gun's Diary but not, strangely, on the same dates that Mike tells me the Argyll Diary says they ere in action.

It's never easy, is it?

Keith

[CSMMo]

Keith,
Each Battery of the 4th Highland (Mountain) Brigade had a detailed AA gun, so you might also see a "Bute Gun" and a "Ross" or a "Ross & Cromarty" gun in these records.  If any of these are found, I might be able to correlate with their respective WD's.

Mike Morrison

[Rockdoc]

I've now copied the Diaries in WO 95/4801 - all 1,100 pages! - so if there are any other references I should be able to find them. How long that will take is another matter as all the Diaries come to about 1,500 pages.    My first priority is to try and work out where the various Sections were sited to see whether there are any clues as to why they were there. For example, I've found that the main ammunition dump was at Dudular, for example, so there were always guns sited nearby, for obvious reasons. Another site guarded XIIth Group's HQ near Kirek. I'll certainly be looking for anything vaguely Scottish while I work my way though!

Keith

[CSMMo]

Having transcribed (most) of the WD's of the 4th Highland Mountain Batteries, Mountain Brigade HQ and Ammunition Column, I can sympathize with you. It's very important work however, so "good job"!

Mike Morrison

[Rockdoc]

I've finally reached February 1918 in my transcriptions of the AA Section War Diaries and the first mention of the "Argyll Air Craft Gun" in 98th B Gun's Diary comes on 7th February, 1918. The B Gun was in the area of Lahana by this time and clearly working with 16 Corps, who had 74th AAS at Mekes and Kopasi Spur and 91st at Coles Kop and Turica at the time. The A Gun of 98th AAS was still near Guvesne and working with the LoC AA Guns (73rd, 95th and 99th AAS) around Salonika.

Keith

[Rockdoc]

The Ross Battery sent in an aircraft-movement message on 21st April 1918 but I've found no other mention of it.

Keith

[CSMMo]

I've finally reached February 1918 in my transcriptions of the AA Section War Diaries and the first mention of the "Argyll Air Craft Gun" in 98th B Gun's Diary comes on 7th February, 1918. The B Gun was in the area of Lahana by this time and clearly working with 16 Corps, who had 74th AAS at Mekes and Kopasi Spur and 91st at Coles Kop and Turica at the time. The A Gun of 98th AAS was still near Guvesne and working with the LoC AA Guns (73rd, 95th and 99th AAS) around Salonika.

Keith

From the Argyll (Mountain) Battery War Diary:
4 Feb 1918 - One gun erected as A.A.Gun at point 1931-1543 (reg. NIGRITA 1/50,000)
9 Feb 1918 - A.A. Gun fired 6 rounds at enemy aeroplane.
12 Feb 1918 - A.A. Gun fired 1 round at enemy aeroplane
16 Feb 1918 - A.A. Gun fired 9 rounds at enemy aeroplane.
27 Feb 1918 - A.A. Gun fired 3 rounds at enemy aeroplane.

The rest of the battery was moving and providing support for 84th Inf. Bde. and against DZERFLI Defences {That's what is says!} and then 83rd Inf. Bde. against BURSUK {I don't make these up!}

I hope this is useful to you.

Mike Morrison

The Ross Battery sent in an aircraft-movement message on 21st April 1918 but I've found no other mention of it.

Keith

(I'm only up to November 1917 with their WD's.)
Mike Morrison

[Rockdoc]

The Ross battery only sent one movement message but, from 98th's Diary, the Argyll Gun remains active until mid-April 1918. Does the Argyll Diary say whether/when it was returned to normal use? It may have been replaced by AA Sections moved into 16 Corps' area about a month after it's last appearance.

98th's A Gun moved from Guvesne in May 1918 onto the floor of the Struma Valley. 95th Section was also moved that month, going to the area around Iviron and Ano Kreusoves.

Keith

[CSMMo]

13 July 1918, "A position at point 1485/1847 (ref. RAJONOVO 1/20000) was occupied.  Registration was carried out on posts 26, 29, 30A & 30.  24 rounds Shrapnel expended.
Enemy aircraft was engaged 5 rounds Shrapnel expended."
That's the last mention of AA duties in the Argyll Mountain Battery.  I couldn't find a reference for when the single gun was returned to the battery except for orders from the Bde HQ for Battery movements 13th July through the big push.  
From June 1918, "During the month Enemy aircraft was engaged as undernoted.
June 4th 5 rounds expended.  June 9th 3 rounds expended.  June 14th 11 rounds expended. June 16th 8 rounds expended.  June 19th 5 rounds expended.  June 24th 7 rounds expended. With the exception of the gun on Antiaircraft duty, the battery remained mobile during the period.  In the course of the week ended 30th June the battery moved to a fresh camping ground about 500 yds W of ground occupied since 23rd April 1918."
So their AA duties/activity were reduced.
There is noted of a Bde rendezvous on 9 September which brings the Bde together for the final push.
Mike Morrison

[Rockdoc]

That opens up another mystery, Mike. The Argyll Gun was clearly sending movement notices into the reporting system - a complex system coordinated by the French in association with each national army - up to April but that its later work wasn't getting to the AA Sections. It may simply be that its messages duplicated those from other OPs, of which there seem to have been quite a few. I don't have a map of the Struma Front but I'd say that the coordinates you give are still on the main part of the Front and not, say, well to the north. Some of the positions used by 91st AAS were at Nigrita 1940/1539, S of Nigoslav 1858/1557 and Marian Flying Ground 1849/1612.

Keith

[apwright]

A position at point 1485/1847 (ref. RAJONOVO 1/20000) was occupied.

Roughly 41.17840 22.99223 on Google Earth, a flattish peak about 770m asl. On old maps, it's about 800m WNW of the village of Kamberli (no longer exists).

The view from here is mainly in the arc from NE to NW - the valley of the Constantinople railway and the mountains on the Bulgarian border opposite, from the Rupel Pass to the hills N of Lake Doiran.
You can also look S - all the way to the mountains around Salonika on a clear day - and around to the SW, Snevce direction. The Struma Valley to the E and SE, and Lake Doiran to the W are obscured by mountains.

Hope this is helpful!

Adrian

[CSMMo]

Thanks, Adrian.  That really helps in understanding the situation.  I believe that the position stated reflects the battery position for purposes of supporting gunfire to the infantry.  In the WD, the entry "Enemy aircraft was engaged 5 rounds Shrapnel expended" is on a separate line (for the same date) with a separate initialed entry of the Battery Commander.  As I interpret it, the AA gun was still detached from the battery and placed in those dug-in positions specially made for the Anti-Air mission (see earlier photo).
With the mission of the mountain gun batteries as flexible and mobile as it was, it would make sense to establish themselves in a position from which they could move rapidly to any number of positions.

Or not... I could be wrong.

Mike Morrison

[Rockdoc]

Ahhh! That location is very interesting and explains why a Mountain Battery was being used. The lorry-mounted guns used by the Sections were obviously restricted to places with some kind of road access. That meant the northern section of the XVI Corps Front between Snevce (OK I know that's XII Corps!) and the Struma Valley had no AA Section close to the front line while enemy planes were flying from the Vardar to the Struma largely unmolested. On 14th September 1918, 94th's Gun at Ismailli, near Snevce, was ordered to moved to a position "400 yds E of BAISILLI, ref DOVA TEPE" but an ammunition lorry went off the road at 18696/14115, blocking the convoy, and the Sub didn't reach the position until 17th September.

Keith

[Rockdoc]

I have come across a new mention that a Mountain Battery was being used against aircraft on the XII Corps front in August 1916 so decided to resurrect this thread rather than start a new one.

An Albatros pilot was having a bad day, to say the least. No 1 Sub-section of 24th AAS, near Kallinova, recorded the following for 10.10-10.15 on 24th August: "Fired 22 rds at an ALBATROSS Ht 10 thousand feet This plane was engaged by Mt Battery KALABAK & by the French 22nd DOIRAN & by 32nd AA Sect." 32nd AAS was at Causica and Selimli Dere.

I know that the Bute Battery was also in Salonika. Would it have been one or more of its guns that are mentioned here or would it have been the Argyll Battery?

Keith

[kevrow]

Could it not also be either 2, 5 or 7 Mnt Bty?

Kevin

[EggletonLF]

It could have been any number of artillery batteries using their guns in AA role. I have a number of examples in 26th Div CRA war diary of this being done by it's 115th Brigade during 1917. Interestingly it is not recorded in the 115th Brigade RFA War Diary which may mean the gun reported directly to Divsion HQ.

E.g.
09/01/1917 - 115th Brigade AA Gun fired 12 rounds at enemy plane

Andrew

[Rockdoc]

Kevin, I did not know that there were other Mountain Batteries in Salonika. I only have information on formations from 1917 onwards and both those sources only give the Argyll and Bute Batteries. If there were others in the Theatre in late 1916 then, of course, it could have been one of them. Were those you mention part of the troops relocated from Salonika?

Andrew, whichever this reference refers to, it's a Mountain Battery. The italics are my transcription of the Diary and I can't see that Mt can be a contraction of anything else. That said, it's interesting that field guns were being used for AA work at a time when 'proper' AA guns were in short supply (eight in total for the Theatre at your date) , although it's hard to see that they could have been anything more than a morale-booster. The ad-hoc arrangements to raise the elevation would not easily allow the gun to track a plane, restricting the period where the plane was 'in bearing'. The 18-pdr was tried as an AA gun but its muzzle velocity was no better than that of the 13-pdr which made the shell flight-time much too long. That was the advantage of sleeving an 18-pdr to take the 13-pdr shell but keeping the 18-pdr charge - the MV went up from 1600 ft/s to 2150 ft/s, a considerable improvement. The 2.75-in Mountain Gun had a greater range of elevation than the field guns but its MV was even lower, at 1300 ft/s. It must have been a frustrating thing to use for AA work as the shell flight-time would make predicting the position of the plane 40 seconds or so on very difficult, as it would be for the 13-pdr AA guns the following year as altitudes increased.

Such arrangements might have had an effect at this stage of the War, though. The AA Sections are reporting planes coming over between 8 and 12,000 feet and they are managing to hit some of them and bringing a few down. Even getting a plane that's spotting for artillery shelling your trench to turn aside briefly would make the PBI feel that something was being done and I'm sure that made them feel a lot better.

Keith

[kevrow]

Quote, "Were those you mention part of the troops relocated from Salonika?"

To Salonika, I think. See  http://www.1914-1918...ry-index.htm  .

Kevin

[Rockdoc]

You're quite right, Kevin. Looking at the page on LLT and its link to the Bute Battery page, it could not have been one of the the IV (Highland) Mountain Brigade guns because they did not leave Salonika for the front until September 1916. III Mountain Brigade must have been aleady under XII Corps control and IV Brigade went to XVI Corps, along the Struma and, possible the line of E-W hills between the Struma and Doiran (Krusha-Balkan?). I'm not really surprised that XII Corps got the first Mountain Batteries because the perceived threat seems to have been from the north and the Struma front was a much lower priority. I am a bit surprised by the gun mentioned in the Diary being at Kalabak. That's a long way back from the front and in a not particularly difficult ground.

Keith