29 replies to this topic

[206thCEF]

A photograph of the no man's land taken at Anzac during the truce of 24 May 1915, organised to bury the the Turks dead from the attack of 19 May when an estimated 3,000 men were killed. A graphic photo.
Joe
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...24_May_1915.jpg

[digzkatz]

Wow,

I have seen a series of (but perhaps, not this particular one) these photos before.
Interestingly, I can see no obvious ANZAC or Turk/ German pers.
Any idea who the unit is?
Also, the amazing array of photos you manage to post for different threads is astounding!
Thanks, please keep it up.

[digzkatz]

I tried to underline OBVIOUS, but wouldn't work. SIGH
I was getting at the (fact?) in the photo, that the skyline was very prominant (ie location), and I'm not sure the hats are right for an ANZAC unit (being an ANZAC Cove? pic).
Please do not misunderstand, and think I am denying the authenicty or location of pic!
I am merely wondering who the men pictured are.
Anyway,

[206thCEF]

Hello digkatz, I quite understand your concerns. I go with the information (s) given with the photographs and I cannot judge if they are accurate or not. Did the person(s) taking the pics put the caption(s) a day, a week, a month after the action.....or after few years while trying to jog the memory. it may be also, a second hand information.....If the photo was actually taken 1915......then not too many people still around to confirm or deny the authenticity of these.
As a former amateur photographer I can kick myself when going through old negatives, taken  a  few years ago, for I can't put a name or name a place because I thought at the time I would easily remember the info.....yeah right......
As for the source of these pics....it's German.
Thanks for your comments digkatz.....keep them coming.

Joe

[green_acorn]

Digzkatz,

The Australians and New Zealanders landed wearing standard British service hats, those in the picture, as part of the deception to reduce the immediate chance of indentification and cause confusion in such indentification by the Ottoman Turks. The image is one of the very famous images of the Australian burial parties at Lone Pine during the truce of 24 May 1915. The photo is one of those taken by Charles "Plevna" Ryan the Medical Officer and can be found at the AWM.

Cheers,
Hendo

[206thCEF]

Thank you, green acorn, for the additional information. Greatly appreciated.
Joe

[digzkatz]

Thanks very much, Green Acorn & 206,

Please excuse my ignorance here, being a recent drop in to this site, I never cease to be amazed by the material & knowledge that is available here.
As I said, I am no expert, but, like many who are not historians, we come here to learn about our ancestors (mine survived). The fact that people such as yourselves take the time to educate and enlighten at times, speaks volumes.
Thanks very much.

[206thCEF]

Hello digkatz, like you said << we come here to learn >> and I am also willing to learn a lot from great guys like Green Acorn and the others Aussies and Brits and Yanks that are willing to teach me about the Big Show.....
Thanks a million and Regards to all.

Joe

[AllieT]

Digzkatz,

The Australians and New Zealanders landed wearing standard British service hats, those in the picture, as part of the deception to reduce the immediate chance of indentification and cause confusion in such indentification by the Ottoman Turks.

Hi, Hendo

I'd not heard that reasoning previously for the hats at Gallipoli.  I just thought they were part of the uniform?  I have pictures of my great uncle in the NZEF taken in Egypt prior to Gallipoli.  In one (taken February 1915) he is wearing the peaked 'British service' hat, in the other (taken April 10th, 1915) he is wearing a slouch hat.  When was it decided to use the hats for deceptive purposes?

Allie

[Krithia]

The Australians and New Zealanders landed wearing standard British service hats, those in the picture, as part of the deception to reduce the immediate chance of indentification and cause confusion in such indentification by the Ottoman Turks. Hendo

Have you got any evidence to support this statement. I have heard this said before but found it hard to believe. Prior to the war I understand that the service dress cap was worn and even after Gallipoli you see them worn in Australia, England and France, although by the time of the Western Front the steel helmet was widely beign worn then. The slouch hat quickly became symbolic headwear for the aussie, alhough worn by the British and Kiwis as well, but the service dress cap I think was standard issue then, and you see photos from the first to last days of the Gallipoli campaign both cap and slouch being worn together.

[PeterH]

Photos from the Illustrated War News,1915

[digzkatz]

I only questioned hats because there are pre-deployment photos (in NZ, and Egypt) of my rellies in 'lemon squeezers' (NZ) as opposed to 'slouch hats' (Aussies) and not Brit peaked caps.
There could well have been operational/ logistical reasons for different headgear used in photo I suppose.
Also, as this pic looks to be a newspaper copy (Sydney Morning Herald, perhaps) photo, I suppose they would only show dead Turks (note no live ones assisting, or dead Allies), and the compassionate ANZACS looking after the enormous pile of Turk dead.
I only mention this due to the propaganda value of this one pic (interestingly, attributed to German photo) when taken out of context with the many others I have seen with ANZAC/ Brit/ French/ Turkish and German troops all clearly identifiable and displaying great compassion/ affiliation?,(I apologise Pals, I cannot think of the right words to use), in other contemporary pics.
However, an incredible bit of history portrayed in hard copy.
As my ancestors said, they "thought nothing could be as bad as Gallipoli, we were wrong! Next stop France!"

[AllieT]

Blair, when did your relatives head overseas?  What regiment were they with?

The 'lemon-squeezer' is one version of a slouch hat and only one way of several worn by men of the NZEF.  A slouch hat by definition is simply a wide-brimmed felt hat with a chin strap.  The Australian style with side turned up is obviously quite a famous version, although they were not the first, nor the only ones, to wear them this way.  Originally, only one NZ group had their hats lemon-squeezer style, the rest had a single indentation down the centre, front to back.  Sometimes our men wore them with hat turned up at the side.  It was only later on in the war that all NZEF men - with the exception of the Mounted Rifles, if memory serves me correctly - were supposed to wear their slouch hats lemon-squeezer style.

The Auckland city library website has quite a number of soldiers photos, taken by a photographer named Schmidt.  There is quite a range of hats there from service dress caps to a variety of slouch hat styles, and the photos date from 1914 - 1920.

Allie

[digzkatz]

I'll have to check photos next time in Auckland. Most of our guys were from Waiarapa and Hawkes Bay. Though some were in UK at start.
Apparently, (and once again we go into anecdote instead of hard facts!) they were in a pre-war training camp and it poured with rain. The Colonel (theirs or some one else's) did the hand up the hat trick to deal with water, and it was adopted from there.
Whether it is entirely true, or they were mucking around with their gear before they left I could not say. However, one of my rellies has a pic of one of the younger brothers, and it looks quite similar.
Problem is, he was a trooper in Boer War and quite possibly under-age!

[More Majorum]

If you go to the Australian War Memorial web site, from the left menu, go to "Collections".
Open "War Diaries" at the bottom of the "Collections" page.
Select World War One.
Select "General Headquarters".
Select AWM Item Number: 1/4/2 Part 4. General Staff, General Headquarters, Mediterranean Expeditionary Force. May 1915.
Click "Pages" icon, left hand top of screen. This will open up the running link to all pages in the file.
Start at page 23 through to page 47, here you will find all the official information of the Armistice.

Also from the AWM "Collections", top of page, click to open search window. Type in "Armistice", if the following link does not work.
If you go through all ten pages of photographs, you will find shots that will relate to all the official papers.

http://cas.awm.gov.au/PROD/cas_search_pkg.pr_simple_search

The second photograph from the "Illistrated War News" is not quite correct. The Turks did not come out armed, as the papers will indicate, all rifles were to have their bolts removed before being handing over to the Turks, these bolts can be seen on the stretchers.
The flag the Turkish soldier is carrying is the "Red Crescent", behind the group of Australian soldiers, the "Red Cross" flag can be made out.

Jeff

[AllieT]

Apparently, (and once again we go into anecdote instead of hard facts!) they were in a pre-war training camp and it poured with rain. The Colonel (theirs or some one else's) did the hand up the hat trick to deal with water, and it was adopted from there.

Yes, that was the Taranaki Rifles in 1911 under Colonel William Malone.  When war was declared, Lt Colonel Malone was in command of the 1st Battalion, 5th Wellington Regiment, and they changed to the Taranaki style.  He was killed at Chunuk Bair, Gallipoli in August 1915.

I think some of the british wore lemon-squeezer type hats during the Boer War, but I don't know if NZers did.  Was he one of your UK connections or a NZer?

Edit Here's a page on 'diggerhistory' which explains all about NZEF hats and the history behind the lemon-squeezer. Clickety click.

For the Auckland library NZEF pictures, go here and type in Schmitd in the search box.  The 17,000 or so images online are only some of the collection.  Others are held at the Alexander Turnbull Library.

More interesting photos!  Thanks for the link, Jeff.

Allie

[green_acorn]

Krithia and Allie T,

Your question has made me question my own understanding and I am adding this to my list for my next trip to Canberra later this year. The story of wearing the service cap, to appear from a distance like all the other British Empire forces, is one that has been with me for many many years. Contmeporary pictures of the troops before and after Gallipoli invarfiably show them without said peaked cap.

The "British" peaked service cap was indeed worn in various forms by Australian CMF and earlier units and individuals prior to the war as was the "Australian Hat" (Beans OH)/the slouch hat/officially Hat, Khaki Fur Felt, but both styles of hat had been worn by many others for many years as well.  This may be of interest http://www.awm.gov.au/encyclopedia/slouch/army.asp Indeed the British Army during the Burma Campaign wore a variation of the slouch hat with press stud holding the left leaf up (I believe he press stud had been rejected in Australia many years earlier because of the damage to the hat it caused).

As to helmets, not issued at Gallipoli and yes later commonly worn on the Western Front. According to Wikipedia the Brodie didn't enter production until October 1915 and was first worn in a major battle in April 1916. I do agree you see many pictures of Australians wearing helmets on the Western Front, who wouldn't wear a helmet when up near the line with all of the shrapnel flying, but you will see the slouch hat more often when the troops are out of the line and you will see very few, if not no peaked service cap's amongst Australian OR's post 1915. By this time the peaked cap had become officer dress and generally remained that way until 1993, unfortunately now you more often see "diggers" with a sweaty and smelly rag (beret) on their heads, if you see them at all.


Cheers,
Hendo

[AllieT]

Hi, Hendo

It's interesting what things stick in your brain, isn't it?  One thing I read/heard somewhere (no idea where) was that the film 'Gallipoli' by Peter Weir was erroneous in a number of ways - one of which was the hats worn by the AIF.  Supposedly (according to what I heard/read) a lot of men in the AIF were wearing the peaked service caps at Gallipoli, but Weir changed it to all slouch hats as that fit with the mythology more.  The feeling was that the peaked cap showed the Aussies were feeling 'british', when Weir wanted to have them more 'Aussie' sentiment.

That being said, the film was mostly Light Horse men, wasn't it?  Years since I saw it.  Did the Light Horse even have the option of the second hat??

So anyway, who knows if what I remember is a load of rot. It probably is.

This photo is of the Auckland Infantry landing at Anzac Cove on the morning of 25 April, 1915.  Chap in front wearing slouch hat, 2nd one with peaked service cap, others behind wearing a mixture of the two.



Allie

[PeterH]

From the Illustrated War News,November 17,1915.


The first trialling of steel helmets in France.

[grantmal]

There may be a simple timeline and explanation for the introduction of British-style field service caps in the AIF written down somewhere, but until someone comes up with it (please!) below is some information on hats/caps at Gallipoli (from the AWM), which may, or may not, be of help. I was going to speculate on what all this meant re exactly when the caps were first issued, but have now thrown the towel, rather than my hat, in the ring.....

It seems there was an attempt to get a handle on the hat situation on Gallipoli in June, and in response to a request for info the following reports were generated:

Divisional HQ, Anzac Cove, 15 June 1915, to the OC 3rd Brigade: "It is noted that there are 1705 serviceable hats now in possession of your unit, made up as follows: -- 9th Battalion none at base, 102 with unit; 10th Battalion -- 164 at base, 21 with unit; 11th Battalion -- 291 at base, 102 with unit; 12th Battalion -- 900 at base, 125 with unit.
Please state, for the information of the General Officer Commanding, the reason for the great shortages shown in the cases of the 9th, 10th, and 11th Battalions. In regard to the numbers given for the 12th Battalion, I am to convey to you, for information to the CO, the GOC's appreciation of the care taken to preserve the hats of that Battalion, and the consequent saving of expense."

On the 16 June the 1st Australian Division sent the following to Anzac HQ: "Many of the units of the Division left a number of their slouch hats at the base at Alexandria. The GOC of the division would be glad if instructions could be sent to the base for these to be extracted from kitbags etc, sorted and packed by units, even down to platoons and troops, if practicable, the packages carefully marked as to contents, and unit, and despatched to Anzac. The GOC further desires to request that the officer in charge of the kits of the Division at Alexandria, be instructed to ensure that the overhauling of kits for the purpose of obtaining the hats be done under the personal supervision of responsible non-commissioned officers. This is most desirable as, unless attention is drawn to the necessity for it, the interests of the owners of the kitbags as regards the safeguarding of the contents thereof, may not be sufficiently conserved."

In an undated document, obviously generated in response to the June 'hat memo', the 1st Division, including attached 4th Light Horse and 2nd Light Horse Brigade, reported 1849 hats left behind at base, and 2604 "serviceable hats with unit." The 1st and 2nd Brigades reported virtually zero hats left in Alexandria, the four battalions of the 3rd Brigade reported over 1300 hats left behind.

The only concrete evidence I have to date of issue is from the 3rd Field Ambulance, which was issued their caps after the unit embarked for Lemnos -- here is Pte Gunn's diary for the 4th of March, 1915:

"Pretty smooth and had a good night's sleep.  In the morning we had our caps issued out.  The are the same as the Tommies wear and are rotten, unhealthy things.  They are only given to us to protect the officers."

Although Gunn was a cynic, there was a general feeling of antipathy among the men toward the officers of the 3rd Field Ambulance at this stage, so it is possible the 'protecting the officers' theme was common.

The 4th Brigade Medical officers sent a report to NZA Division HQ on 28th of June stating: "In this weather the ordinary Field service cap is insufficient protection for the back of the head and neck, and that helmets, felt hats, cap flaps, or some other form of protection is advisable." Col Monash added: "If these were obtained, they think the habit of wearing little or nothing on the body could be continued without prejudice to the men's health. In view of the above I would be glad to be informed as to when cap curtains or felt hats are likely to be available for issue to the Brigade under my command."

In the last week of November 1915 the 13th Battalion reported that 287 men possessed caps only, 163 hats only, and 121 had both hats and caps. The CO also considered "that any hats at present in wear on becoming unserviceable should be replaced by hats, being the more suitable head dress for winter." The 16th Battalion reported 462 men in possession of caps, 166 with hats, and 69 with both. "The general feeling of the Battalion is preference for hats," wrote the CO.

2nd Australian Division HQ replying to Anzac HQ on 23 January 1916 stated: "The most suitable type of headdress depends upon the time which the Army Corps may expect to spend in Egypt. If it is probable that we will leave Egypt by about the end of April or early in May, the hat is the more suitable. It is more suitable for wear then the helmet in any climactic conditions other than summer in Egypt or the tropics. It is also the distinctive Australian head dress and is preferred on that account. If the Corps is to spend the summer in Egypt the helmet will be more suitable."

I agree with Hendo that the slouch hat seems ubiquitous in the AIF after 1915, but only overseas. I have photos of 2 relatives, taken in 1916 and 1917 in Perth before embarkation, in which both are wearing the field service cap. Conversely, I have dozens of photographs of 3rd Field Ambulance individuals and sections, taken in camp in Australia, on troopships, and in Egypt, in 1914 and pre-March 1915, and all OR's are wearing slouch hats, or (usually in camp in Aust) the 'garrison caps' modelled below by Ted Langoulant.

 Teddy.jpg   20.81K   1 downloads

As for the photos taken on the May 24 armistice posted by Peter, the second one was taken by Pte Kyle Gault of the 3rd Field Ambulance. The first one is very similar in view to another photo taken by Gault that day, which appears in Vol.12 of the Official History. The 3rd Field Ambulance was evacuating the RAP's of the 3rd and 4th Battalions at the head of Bridges Road at this stage, and on May 24 one squad from each section and 50 stretchers were sent up to help the 1st Brigade burial parties.

Good on you,

Grant

[stu]

Although no longer in my collection, here is a photo of 12th Btn AIF NCOs in France dated on the reverse 1/5/16, wearing what appear to me to be service caps, there is however a man in the background wearing a slouch hat.
I'm certainly no expert on uniform, but are these the type of caps being discussed?

Stuart

Attached Files

•  anzac.jpg   42.53K   0 downloads

[Krithia]

Yes, these are the same caps and goes to prove they were still worn whilst in France in 1916. A great pic by the way.

[green_acorn]

And I must stand corrected as well as I just realised that there are pics from 1918 of individual AIF soldiers wearing service caps as well, teach me to make quick generalisations! 2863 Private Thomas Benoit. I note that in Egypt during early 1915 there was a shortage of the "Australian hat" (Bean in the OH) and that he mentioned that many soldiers purchased/acquired/were issued the service cap and the pith helmets, the pith helmet being particularly popular amongst the Light Horseman.

Noting the earlier post about the number of slouch hats that had been left behind packed in duffel bags, it would seem that either the slouch hat wasn't popular, possibly being seen as impractical for the task, or that in some units there was some sort of policy (from whence the legend I repeated on deception possibly arises). We know the Australian Divisional Commader, Bridges was wearing his slouch hat, with the brim down, back to front at the time he was killed. So if there was a "no slouch hat" policy at the unit or brigade level, why? Impracticality of the slouch hat during an assault? The unit commanders/soldiers wanting to be seen as "British" (Empire), rather than "Colonials" from Australia? A security (deception) measure? The climate and weather not being seen as needing it as much as they had in the Boer War or in Australia or Egypt? Not everyone having slouch hats therefore a one on all on, uniformity issue? (uniformity of appearance being so popular in armies even then) Or was it just laissez-faire for hats and I and many others have misinterpreted the lack of slouch hats for many years?

I could agree with the slouch hat being impractical on the morning of 25 April or any other assault for that matter, having been in an infantry battalion that wore them as part of our uniform in the field and barracks regularly in the late 1970's (8/9 RAR), when we were the only unit in the Australian Army South of the Tropic of Capricorn authorised to wear them with the brim down and with barracks, field and fatiue party dress. But for all those other times sitting around or doing manual labour they were ok, but still not as good as the bush "giggle" hat. But they had and do have real value as a means of identity and pride, both group and individual which was the reason our CO Horry Howard got it approved.  Could the prominence of the hat post 1915 be for similar reasons as a matter of policy or desire by the troops to be seen as different.




Cheers,
Hendo

[More Majorum]

A reason for the wearing of the service cap by the Australian infantry at the landing is proving difficult to find, but for the 3rd Light Horse Brigade, with its pending departure to Gallipoli, the orders are precise.

11-5-1915 (Tuesday) – Reveille at 3 a.m. Bayonet charge practiced in the morning and trench digging after that. All three regiments of the 3rd LH Bgde. were issued with the British Wolseley sun helmet and slouch hats were instructed to be handed in.

13-5-1915 (Thursday) – The 3rd LH Brigade was inspected by Major General Sir Ian Hamilton at 7.30 a.m.
After parade, exercising of horses in the morning and fatigue duties in the afternoon. Orders were issued for the 3rd Brigade to prepare to entrain for Alexandria, from which it would embark for the Dardanelles.
The 8th Regiment was to march out at full strength. Each Squadron comprising 6 officers and 148 other ranks, some of the reinforcements, who had up to this point had been quartered apart from the Brigade, were called upon. They were to be ready to move to Alexandria for embarkation at the 15th inst.
Infantry puttees, a black kit bag, a haversack and a special ‘Dardanelles’ knapsack was issued to each man and instructions were given as to what could be packed. One pair of breeches, one tunic, one pair of boots, one pair of underpants, one hair brush, one shirt and one towel, was to be packed into the black kit bags which were to be transported to Alexandria for shipment. They were to carry in their packs, a cap, towel, shirt, comforter, spare pair of socks, razor and housewife. In addition to this each man would also have to carry, a mess tin, overcoat, blanket, two waterproof sheets, a full water bottle and 130 rounds of ammunition. In all each man would be carrying around 62 pounds in weight. Slouch hats, leather leggings and spurs were to be left behind.

2nd Lt Charles Carthew, "A" Troop, "C" Squadron, in a letter home to his mother; noted; “Just a line to let you know that we are off to the front on Saturday next, and am sorry to say are going as dismounted LH. We are not very much cut up about it despite all the work and training we’ve had with them because we are all anxious to be doing something in the real business. One thing Mother, we are fitted out well as regards clothing, the trouble is carrying it. Us Officers are fitted out just like the men. Bandoleer, Rifle and Bayonet, clothing and all issued with Helmets. The reason is we can’t be picked out from the men, gives us a better chance.” ["Voices from the Trenches, Letters to home". Pages 24-25. Noel Carthew, 2002. New Holland Publishers, Aust. ISBN 9781864367447.]

From the photographs of the 8th Light Horse Regiment at Gallipoli it can be seen that some of the men disregarded the order to leave their slouch hats behind, but the photographs from the J. P. Campbell collection [National Library of Australia] clearly show all men of "A" & "B" Squadrons arriving at Anzac Cove, 21st May, wearing the Wolseley helmet.

Jeff

[AllieT]

Well, the British Wolseley sun helmet adds another dimension, doesn't it?  I didn't realise the AIF had them at Gallipoli, not having seen a pic of them wearing it.  But it makes sense.

There's quite a well known photograph of the Wellington Mounted Rifles resting in a trench during their assault on Chunuk Bair.  Sun helmets well and truly on display there, along with caps but no NZEF slouch hats.  See here.

They were to carry in their packs, a cap, towel, shirt, comforter, spare pair of socks, razor...

Well, that seems to suggest that the caps were an ordinary piece of kit.

Oops, Joe, your thread has gone well and truly off on a tangent, hasn't it?  Eep.

Allie