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German Bayonet Questions


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#1 4thGordons

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 09:03 PM

Looking for examples of German wartime bayonets to pair with rifles and I am bewildered by the number of types, sub types and variants. I have examined a good number of photos but can't see much in the way of a pattern. I can do 1907 pattern british and variants but I am at a loss here!

I would appreciate suggestions as to "most representative" (most commonly used?) type to be paired with:

1916 GEW 98
pre war GEW 88
1917 Kar98a

TIA
Chris

#2 Gunner Bailey

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Posted 15 August 2009 - 09:23 PM

QUOTE (4thGordons @ Aug 15 2009, 10:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Looking for examples of German wartime bayonets to pair with rifles and I am bewildered by the number of types, sub types and variants. I have examined a good number of photos but can't see much in the way of a pattern. I can do 1907 pattern british and variants but I am at a loss here!

I would appreciate suggestions as to "most representative" (most commonly used?) type to be paired with:

1916 GEW 98
pre war GEW 88
1917 Kar98a

TIA
Chris


Chris

I think the metal handled Ersatz were common at the end of the war. I see quite a few in France.

John

#3 Old War Skule

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 02:46 AM

QUOTE (4thGordons @ Aug 15 2009, 04:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Looking for examples of German wartime bayonets to pair with rifles and I am bewildered by the number of types, sub types and variants. I have examined a good number of photos but can't see much in the way of a pattern. I can do 1907 pattern British and variants but I am at a loss here!

I would appreciate suggestions as to "most representative" (most commonly used?) type to be paired with:

1916 GEW 98
pre war GEW 88
1917 Kar98a

TIA
Chris


You're right, Chris. There's more variations of German bayonets than any other combatant. The basic infantryman's bayonet was the 1898 "Quill back" in two variations, as well as the 1898/05 "butcher" in two patterns, and the "saw back butcher," probably the most well known of the Great War. I'd place these as early to mid war types. Beware of fake saw back butcher bayonets. There's also the 1914, which looks similar to the WW II K98 bayonet; the 1884/98, which resembles the K98 bayonet as well, and saw back versions of these as well! Good luck!

#4 4thGordons

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 03:11 AM

QUOTE (Old War Skule @ Aug 15 2009, 09:46 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You're right, Chris. There's more variations of German bayonets than any other combatant. The basic infantryman's bayonet was the 1898 "Quill back" in two variations, as well as the 1898/05 "butcher" in two patterns, and the "saw back butcher," probably the most well known of the Great War. I'd place these as early to mid war types. Beware of fake saw back butcher bayonets. There's also the 1914, which looks similar to the WW II K98 bayonet; the 1884/98, which resembles the K98 bayonet as well, and saw back versions of these as well! Good luck!



Thanks...
So let me rephrase... for argument's sake if one were going to pair bayonet types with rifles along these lines

GEW88 - as a used by "reserve" units early war
GEW98 - as arming troops in the front line in July 1916
Kar 98s -arming assault troops in March 1918

What would the suggestions be? were ersatz bayonets in use as early as 1916, were shortened blades?
I see sawbacks with the sawback removed - when did this happen?
and how about this for a question from ignorance...
will Gew 98 bayonets fit on the Gew 88? (If so - were they issued with them or...)

Chris

PS OWSkule - my wife is a LSU grad!

#5 sabine72

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 07:39 AM

Chris
There is a nice belgian website where you can find all your answers.
It is www.bajonet.be
Kind regards
Pat

#6 4thGordons

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 01:17 PM

QUOTE (sabine72 @ Aug 16 2009, 02:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Chris
There is a nice belgian website where you can find all your answers.
It is www.bajonet.be
Kind regards
Pat


Thanks Pat. - looks promising - except that almsot all the links to German Bayonets from the index page appear to be broken (at least in the English language bit - I'll try other) ! The 1895 Steyr Mannlicher works but none of the others!
Chris

(EDIT: OK they work in German so I'm set! THANKS)

#7 wyliecoyote

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 02:33 PM

QUOTE (4thGordons @ Aug 15 2009, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks...
So let me rephrase... for argument's sake if one were going to pair bayonet types with rifles along these lines

GEW88 - as a used by "reserve" units early war
GEW98 - as arming troops in the front line in July 1916
Kar 98s -arming assault troops in March 1918

What would the suggestions be? were ersatz bayonets in use as early as 1916, were shortened blades?
I see sawbacks with the sawback removed - when did this happen?
and how about this for a question from ignorance...
will Gew 98 bayonets fit on the Gew 88? (If so - were they issued with them or...)

Chris

PS OWSkule - my wife is a LSU grad!



Gewehr 88 - you name it, they used it! S71, S71/84, S88/98 ersatz are the most common. But I have seen all types in photos of the period. Ersatz started appearing in fall of 1914.

Gew 98 - S98, S98/05, SS84/98, S88/98. These are most common. S98 fell out of favor as it was easily bent / broken, and was ordered removed from the front by 1917.

Gew 98a / Kar 98 - S98/05, S84/98, S88/98 again most common.

Hope that helps!


#8 N White

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 03:56 PM

On the subject of ersatz, here's a fun one for the Gew88. It amuses me having a bayonet that's both French and German at the same time.




#9 wyliecoyote

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 04:17 PM

QUOTE (N White @ Aug 16 2009, 11:56 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
On the subject of ersatz, here's a fun one for the Gew88. It amuses me having a bayonet that's both French and German at the same time.




Beatiful example of an ersatz Gras bayonet modified for use on a Gew 88 rifle. Surprised to see that the scabbard was not modified with a German frog stud.

Have you fixed it to a Gew 88 yet?

Is it regimented at all? Thanks for sharing that beauty!

#10 Torrey

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 05:20 PM

QUOTE (4thGordons @ Aug 15 2009, 11:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks...
So let me rephrase... for argument's sake if one were going to pair bayonet types with rifles along these lines

GEW88 - as a used by "reserve" units early war
GEW98 - as arming troops in the front line in July 1916
Kar 98s -arming assault troops in March 1918

What would the suggestions be? were ersatz bayonets in use as early as 1916, were shortened blades?
I see sawbacks with the sawback removed - when did this happen?
and how about this for a question from ignorance...
will Gew 98 bayonets fit on the Gew 88? (If so - were they issued with them or...)

Chris

PS OWSkule - my wife is a LSU grad!


Hello, Chris -

The ersatz bayonets were manufactured and issued as early as 1915. Engineer bayonets ("sawbacks") were modified so that they could be issued to non-engineer troops. I presume that this was done from 1915-1916 on. [There is a passage in All Quiet on the Western Front about this.] The short S-84/98 bayonets were manufactured and issued early in the war; shortened ersatz bayonets with 10-inch blades would be incorrect because the blades were shortened in Turkey after the war.

For your display I would use one of the ersatz bayonets on the Gew-88, a S-98/05 "Butcher" bayonet on the Gew-98, and a S-84/98 short bayonet with the Kar-98. [Those are the bayonets that I have on my own Gew-88, Gew-98, and Kar-98 rifles; numerous other combinations would work, too.]

Two good reference books are John Walter's The German Bayonet and Anthony Carter's German Ersatz Bayonets.

I hope that this information is of some use.

Regards, Torrey

#11 wyliecoyote

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 07:42 PM

QUOTE (Torrey @ Aug 16 2009, 01:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hello, Chris -

The ersatz bayonets were manufactured and issued as early as 1915. Engineer bayonets ("sawbacks") were modified so that they could be issued to non-engineer troops. I presume that this was done from 1915-1916 on. [There is a passage in All Quiet on the Western Front about this.] The short S-84/98 bayonets were manufactured and issued early in the war; shortened ersatz bayonets with 10-inch blades would be incorrect because the blades were shortened in Turkey after the war.

For your display I would use one of the ersatz bayonets on the Gew-88, a S-98/05 "Butcher" bayonet on the Gew-98, and a S-84/98 short bayonet with the Kar-98. [Those are the bayonets that I have on my own Gew-88, Gew-98, and Kar-98 rifles; numerous other combinations would work, too.]

Two good reference books are John Walter's The German Bayonet and Anthony Carter's German Ersatz Bayonets.

I hope that this information is of some use.

Regards, Torrey


Torrey

17 August 1917, General Ludendorff asked for the immediate suspension of saw back production. The Prussian War Ministry ordered the gradual replacement of all saw backed bayonets at the front 15 Sept 1917. On 6 January 1918, the Prussian War Ministry ordered the removal of the saws from S98/05 & S84/98 by grinding them off.

And you are right, 1915 was the year they began to appear, not 1914. Might have been thinking of the S1914!

#12 gew98

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 07:42 PM

There is a veritable cornucopia of bayonets the germans used in the great war. The gew88 still played a role until the end of the war. The ersatz bayonets started in 1915 and pretty much stopped production by late 1916 as 98/05 and 84/98 bayonet production caught up.
Sawbacks of the 84/98 and 98/05 types are fairly common as they were widely issued and toward the end of the war some had their sawteeth milled off.
Anyhow about any variation would work with the gew98 , most with the kar98a as well.
The gew88 is often seen in wartime pics with the the G71 and 71/84 pokers. The gew98 .. you name it they used it. I myself am not a collector of the ersatz patterns.For some are unique and collecting ersatz pokers is a huge hobby theme itself !. The kar98a can be seen with in wartime pics S98, 84/98 and 98/05 pokers. I have'nt seen an ersatz type mounted on one in period pics but I would wager it was used on it too.

Attached Files



#13 wyliecoyote

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 07:46 PM

QUOTE (gew98 @ Aug 16 2009, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is a veritable cornucopia of bayonets the germans used in the great war. The gew88 still played a role until the end of the war. The ersatz bayonets started in 1915 and pretty much stopped production by late 1916 as 98/05 and 84/98 bayonet production caught up.
Sawbacks of the 84/98 and 98/05 types are fairly common as they were widely issued and toward the end of the war some had their sawteeth milled off.
Anyhow about any variation would work with the gew98 , most with the kar98a as well.
The gew88 is often seen in wartime pics with the the G71 and 71/84 pokers. The gew98 .. you name it they used it. I myself am not a collector of the ersatz patterns.For some are unique and collecting ersatz pokers is a huge hobby theme itself !. The kar98a can be seen with in wartime pics S98, 84/98 and 98/05 pokers. I have'nt seen an ersatz type mounted on one in period pics but I would wager it was used on it too.


Absolutely fantastic! The bayonets are sweet too! biggrin.gif

#14 wyliecoyote

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 08:04 PM

QUOTE (gew98 @ Aug 16 2009, 03:42 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There is a veritable cornucopia of bayonets the germans used in the great war. The gew88 still played a role until the end of the war. The ersatz bayonets started in 1915 and pretty much stopped production by late 1916 as 98/05 and 84/98 bayonet production caught up.
Sawbacks of the 84/98 and 98/05 types are fairly common as they were widely issued and toward the end of the war some had their sawteeth milled off.
Anyhow about any variation would work with the gew98 , most with the kar98a as well.
The gew88 is often seen in wartime pics with the the G71 and 71/84 pokers. The gew98 .. you name it they used it. I myself am not a collector of the ersatz patterns.For some are unique and collecting ersatz pokers is a huge hobby theme itself !. The kar98a can be seen with in wartime pics S98, 84/98 and 98/05 pokers. I have'nt seen an ersatz type mounted on one in period pics but I would wager it was used on it too.


Front row, 1st & fourth from the right, Gew 98 rifles with S88/98 - E.B.# 3 bayonets. These men were from the 90th Fusilier Regiment, dated 1914 / 1915. Others are armed with Gew 88 rifles with & with out ejection port covers. As there appears to be no rivet on the outside of the covers present, the rifles are either Gewehr 88/05 or Gewehr 88/14.



#15 wyliecoyote

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 08:18 PM

Another chap, hard to tell what S88/98 bayonet this one is. Not dated or unit identified.



#16 wyliecoyote

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:21 AM

QUOTE (4thGordons @ Aug 15 2009, 05:03 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Looking for examples of German wartime bayonets to pair with rifles and I am bewildered by the number of types, sub types and variants. I have examined a good number of photos but can't see much in the way of a pattern. I can do 1907 pattern british and variants but I am at a loss here!

I would appreciate suggestions as to "most representative" (most commonly used?) type to be paired with:

1916 GEW 98
pre war GEW 88
1917 Kar98a

TIA
Chris


Chris

What are the regimentals on your rifles? I have been going over this thread and it occured to me that perhaps you want bayonets that are representative of the regimentals on the rifles you list. So, advise us on what you are truely looking for. Please!

Are they Prussian? Are they Bavarian? What bayonets do you already own?

1916 Gew 98 - S98 Quilback, S98/05nA, S84/98, S88/98 If Pionier - S98/05mS (sawback)

Gew 88 - Prussian Regt. or Landsturm Btln. - S71, S88/98 (ersatz), or you name it!
Bavarian Regt. or Landsturm Btln. - S71/84, S88/98 (ersatz) or you name it!

1917 Gew 98A - S98/05 with flashguard, S84/98 w/ flashguard, S98 w/ Flashguard, S88/98


Let us know what you have, if you will!

#17 4thGordons

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:49 AM

Wylie
Actually the only one regimentally marked is the Commission Rifle, the others are plain.
the GEW 88 is marked to: B 4. R 16.266

I was really just looking for representative blades for display/as part of a collection of Great War infantry rifles I have been working on for a few years.

Thanks to everyone for the answers and suggestions (esp.reference materials) I have browsed eBay and suspect aquiring the required bayonets will take a while! I was not aware the prices were so significantly higher than so many other GW bayonets.

Thankyou all very much again,
Chris


#18 N White

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 01:19 AM

Wylie- sadly no regimental marks. The scabbard serial does not match- so the original frogstud could have been modified, or not. No idea when it picked up this scabbard, but it was before I got ahold of it. I have not tried it on a gew88 as I lack one. (Some day...) I picked it up beacuse it was a Gras maker I was missing (#9/10 for me, Paris-Oudry), the facts that it was modified and cost less than a normal Gras can go for around here were happy coinicidences- not that I would have passed it up if it was a maker I had had already!

#19 wyliecoyote

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 02:28 AM

QUOTE (4thGordons @ Aug 16 2009, 08:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wylie
Actually the only one regimentally marked is the Commission Rifle, the others are plain.
the GEW 88 is marked to: B 4. R 16.266

I was really just looking for representative blades for display/as part of a collection of Great War infantry rifles I have been working on for a few years.

Thanks to everyone for the answers and suggestions (esp.reference materials) I have browsed eBay and suspect aquiring the required bayonets will take a while! I was not aware the prices were so significantly higher than so many other GW bayonets.

Thankyou all very much again,
Chris


4th Gordons

As the rifle is Bavarian regimented, regardless of what type of Regt, Bavarians favored the S 71/84, but really any of the S71, S71/84, or ersatz S88/98 will do for your representation. Landsturm were issued what ever was handy.

Glad to have been a help.

N White

Even without regimental stamps, your ersatz Gras is a fantastic example, one to be well pleased with. Nice find, I wish I had one as nice as yours!



#20 pqt

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 12:54 PM

Hello

Thre are at least 2 basics

The Gewehr 88 family (i.e. the nuemrous sub-variants) all
basically used the Steitengewehr designed for the
Gewehr 71 -- 71/84

Also the many very attractive types
of Ersatz models, or modified foreign models

Attachement system for the bayonet is different
from that for the "98" family

In the 98 family i.e. virtually "all other" rifles,
apart few exceptions (export models used by germans),
the bayonet attachment uses the standard
4cm part with is OK for holding
the bayonet w/o the need for a ring around the end
of the barrel (bad for precision)

Mauser "export" models usually use a 3cm attachment device
and this needs a ring around the end of the barrel

Then --- 2 main variants rely on the length of the barrel

With Geweher 98, barrel is long enough
for the blast not to burn the bayonet grips

With the widely distributed shorter Karabiner 98AZ
(after the war -- K98a)
it was not the case -- this caused the "flash guard" metal
cover being installed over the grips and a rework of the bayo. grip system

Would be a very bad idea to show an early model S98/05
w/o "flash guard" on a K98AZ carbine

But ------ really OK if a late model S98/05 with "flash-guard"

Same with an early S98 w/o or with "flash-guard"

Of course -- no problem with most Ersatz bayo. which are full-metal

BTW ---- I have been looking for years for a "heavy" 98/02

Did someone around here met such an item some day...

#21 wyliecoyote

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 09:49 PM

I wish I could afford to own S98/02! Those come at a premium.

#22 4thGordons

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 04:28 PM

Thanks again for all the information.
I am looking at a couple of bayonets and wondered if anyone could point me in the direction of an online reference regarding German makers' marks / stamping. I know there are books but as this is very much a side interest for me I don't really want to invest heavily in reference materials - my Enfield refs are bad enough.
TIA
Chris

#23 wyliecoyote

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:06 PM

QUOTE (wyliecoyote @ Aug 16 2009, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gewehr 88 - you name it, they used it! S71, S71/84, S88/98 ersatz are the most common. But I have seen all types in photos of the period.




From left to right: Most common bayonet in photographs taken during WWI-Sg 71, Second most common (most common with Bavarians) Sg 71/84, Sg 1914 (Bayard-Liege, Be.), as used by Pioniers-Sg 98/05aAmS-old type with sawback, Sg 88/98 E.B.# 45, which combines the hilt of an ersatz 98/05 with the blade with straight fullers like the Belgian Mle 1909 or the Bayard Sg 1914 blades.

#24 wyliecoyote

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Posted 01 September 2009 - 09:18 PM

QUOTE (wyliecoyote @ Aug 16 2009, 10:33 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Gewehr 88 - you name it, they used it! S71, S71/84, S88/98 ersatz are the most common. But I have seen all types in photos of the period.

Hope that helps!




From left to right: All these are Sg 88/98 ersatz bayonets: E.B.# 47, E.B.# 35 with the later production unfullered blade, E.B.# 27 with later production unfullered blade, E.B.# 37 with later production unfullered blade, E.B.# 50 with later production unfullered blade.

#25 wyliecoyote

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Posted 04 September 2009 - 12:31 PM

Here's a carbine/bayonet combination you won't often see. Meet Paul of the 22nd Infantrie Div. Cancelled 22 June 1915.

He isn't armed with a Gew 88, something most unusual, his S71 sword bayonet is fixed to a Gew 98a. He must have recently traded in his Gew 88 for a new carbine prior to this photo being taken, and hadn't yet received a replacement bayonet. Notice that the end of the muzzle is only about a third from the end of the hilt. What kind of testiculiar fortitude would it take to shoot thru the full muzzle ring with the muzzle that far away from it?

The 22nd Infantry Division was transfered to the Ostfront in October 1914, where they remained until Oct. 1917, when they were transfered to Verdun. So this picture most likely originated somewhere on the Eastern Front.