46 replies to this topic

[P. J. Clarke]

Hi my informative ones: I have a list of names and numbers, from T. P. Kilfeather's book, "The Connaught Rangers" but no addresses of those Connaught Rangers who mutined in India. Where they were imprisoned, and released from, English jails. I know of 29 names  (again no addresses) who were released from Maidstone and one from Parkhurst in January, 1923. That leaves thirty-nine. This is the only list I have found.  I had two Ballina soldiers -- James Joseph Devers (No. 32609), Patrick Joseph Mangan (no. 35250) -- and now Valentine Delaney (no. 35200), whom I've just discovered in a write-up of the Mutiny in a local Mayo paper in 1934  which said he was from Ballina, Co. Mayo. I doubt this.  I can find no trace of him in the census of 1901 or 1911 in Ballina. He was married to Eugene Egan's sister from Claremorris, Co. Mayo . Eugene (no. 32295) was also sentenced to death for his part in the Mutiny. Delany had emigrated to America by 1934. Can anybody shed any light on him? Also I have found in another write-up that Patrick Mangan was the last the mutineers to die. Kindest regards.

[GRUMPY]

Can't help there, but my personal hero arrested them.

Captain & Brevet Lt-Col William Henry Stanway DSO MC, ex CSM of 2nd battalion RWF in the Great War, subsequently an OBE.

By virtue of his brevet, he commanded the mixed force sent to put down the mutiny and arrest the mutineers. Knowing his martial reputation and his concept of a soldier's honour, they were rather lucky not to be mown down en masse.

I assume your reference book has his details etc?

[IPT]

Only one Valentine Delaney on the Irish 1911 census, aged 13 and living with plenty of Dillons (down as "Nephew");

Residents of house number 12 in Rockfield (Ballyhowly, Mayo)

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/reels/nai003000234/

[HERITAGE PLUS]

THE DEVIL TO PAY - The Mutiny of the Connaught Rangers, India, July 1920 by Anthony Babington states that Delaney was from County Roscommon.

Dave

[P. J. Clarke]

Can't help there, but my personal hero arrested them.

Captain & Brevet Lt-Col William Henry Stanway DSO MC, ex CSM of 2nd battalion RWF in the Great War, subsequently an OBE.

By virtue of his brevet, he commanded the mixed force sent to put down the mutiny and arrest the mutineers. Knowing his martial reputation and his concept of a soldier's honour, they were rather lucky not to be mown down en masse.

I assume your reference book has his details etc?

These men in the Connaught Rangers had put their lives on the line for the army to which they signed up, and the punishment that they got for this "skirmish" was above and way beyond the boundaries of humankind. About your personal hero: Was he awarded the DSO for nearly massacreing unarmed men? Poor fellow, he nearly brought the whole British army to round up a couple of hundred Irish lads (and a few Englishmen) who were sitting around the camp having a sing-song! I think you should align yourself with an Irishman called Major R. L. "Johnny" Payne, from Cork,  who nearly mowed down the Connaughts, only for the intervention of a Catholic priest, Fr. Levin,  and the arrival of a Colonel Jackson, who told Payne: "Who gave you orders to do this. Get out of here and take those men (South Wales Borderers) with you." About your hero's concept of a soldier's honour: "I wonder did he investigate why the Connaughts acted the way they did and for what reason, and did he investigate the murderous brutality that the Black and Tans vented on the people in Ireland. I think not.

[GRUMPY]

I have reported this thread to the moderators as I do not like the tone taken and will certainly walk away from this one.

[Connaught Stranger]

These men in the Connaught Rangers had put their lives on the line for the army to which they signed up, and the punishment that they got for this "skirmish" was above and way beyond the boundaries of humankind. About your personal hero: Was he awarded the DSO for nearly massacreing unarmed men? Poor fellow, he nearly brought the whole British army to round up a couple of hundred Irish lads (and a few Englishmen) who were sitting around the camp having a sing-song! I think you should align yourself with an Irishman called Major R. L. "Johnny" Payne, from Cork,  who nearly mowed down the Connaughts, only for the intervention of a Catholic priest, Fr. Levin,  and the arrival of a Colonel Jackson, who told Payne: "Who gave you orders to do this. Get out of here and take those men (South Wales Borderers) with you." About your hero's concept of a soldier's honour: "I wonder did he investigate why the Connaughts acted the way they did and for what reason, and did he investigate the murderous brutality that the Black and Tans vented on the people in Ireland. I think not.

Hallo P.J.   

obviously the Connaught Rangers is a subject close to your heart, but, in all fairness, your referenced "skirmish" was a

mutiny, under the Queens Regulations in the British Army of the day,  

(as there was no soldiers representative body, then as the Irish Army and other modern

Army of today have, also in matters of politic and foreign policy, soldiers of any country still have very little say,

they are paid to perform as directed.)

From my memory of reading the book by T.P. Kilfeather,

the one man who paid the ultimate price, for his transgression was sentenced to death when

along with fellow comrades at Solan on the Kalka-Simla railway (Punjab) where two Connaught Ranger emissaries were

subsequently arrested, and whereupon a small number of the Connaught Rangers tried to rush the armoury,

during the attempt he shouted out his name and the words, "you will remember me!"

These men in the Connaught's, had signed up for service in the British Army,

and ultimately were giving their allegiance to the Queen, it was not their job to play politics.

And as for nearly mowing down the Connaught's, is not quite the same as, mowing down the Connaught's.

Nor was it  Major R. L. "Johnny" Payne's job to investigate what was done by the Black and Tans.

Nobody here is disputing the fact that terrible things were done in Ireland in the past, by all sides involved.

Connaught Stranger.

[P. J. Clarke]

Hallo P.J.   

obviously the Connaught Rangers is a subject close to your heart, but, in all fairness, your referenced "skirmish" was a

mutiny, under the Queens Regulations in the British Army of the day,  

(as there was no soldiers representative body, then as the Irish Army and other modern

Army of today have, also in matters of politic and foreign policy, soldiers of any country still have very little say,

they are paid to perform as directed.)

From my memory of reading the book by T.P. Kilfeather,

the one man who paid the ultimate price, for his transgression was sentenced to death when

along with fellow comrades at Solan on the Kalka-Simla railway (Punjab) where two Connaught Ranger emissaries were

subsequently arrested, and whereupon a small number of the Connaught Rangers tried to rush the armoury,

during the attempt he shouted out his name and the words, "you will remember me!"

These men in the Connaught's, had signed up for service in the British Army,

and ultimately were giving their allegiance to the Queen, it was not their job to play politics.

And as for nearly mowing down the Connaught's, is not quite the same as, mowing down the Connaught's.

Nor was it  Major R. L. "Johnny" Payne's job to investigate what was done by the Black and Tans.

Nobody here is disputing the fact that terrible things were done in Ireland in the past, by all sides involved.

Connaught Stranger.

Hi, my man: You're dead right. I got carried away in the heat of the moment, and for that I apologise to all the readers of this thread. Poor old Grumps took it too much to heart. Just by way of passing: By Christmas, 1914, a total of 1,176 officers have been killed; 2,150 wounded, and 783 missing or prisoners. The Connaughts suffered most severely, with total casualties amounting to fifty-three, which is composed of nineteen killed, twenty-six wounded and nine missing or prisoners. The Royal Irish Regiment had forty-three -- nine killed; ten wounded and twenty-four prisoners or missing. The Irish Rifles and Irish Guards come next with a total of thirty-nine, composed in the case of the first named of nine killed, twenty-ive wounded and fie missing or prisoners, and in the latter, thirteen killed, twenty-one wounded and five missing or prisoners. Inniskilling Fusiliers: 39; Munster Fusiliers: twenty-five; Leinster Regiment, twenty-six; Irish Fusiliers: nineteen; Dublin Fusiliers: seventeen; 4th Royal Irish Dragoons: fourteen; the 5th Royal Irish Lancers: nine. The lowest recorded is that of the Royal Irish Horse with a total of one missing or a prisoner. Also: please remember these Mayo men who died in October, 1914: Pte. Benjamin Thomas Johnson, Ballina, 1st Battn. Northumberland Fusiliers, k.i.a. 13th October; Pte. Martin Lavin, Ballina, 6th Battn. Royal Irish Regiment, died 26th October; Lance Corporal John Forde, 2nd Batt. Connaught Rangers, k.i.a. 28th October; Pte. M. Convey, Ballina, 2nd Battn. Connaught Rangers, k.i.a. 28th October, and the many who were wounded and those taken prisoner Private James Moyles, Ballina, 2nd Battn. Connaught Rangers, k.i.a. 2nd November, 1914. He was the grandfather of Chris Moyles, well-known radio and TV presenter, and who was featured on "Who do You Think You Are".

[mad paddy]

Hello all. Havn't been on the forum for a while but saw the thread I was just reading the post about the Connaughts mutiny very interesting. I am a Devers. My mother is Kathleen Devers from Ballina. James Devers from the Mutiny was from Ballina. I am almost certain he is related to myself. Finding out where and how is the problem. I heard from my cousin in mayo that my great grand father had 21 children..all devers. How he found the time to work who knows..he made shoes. I know the name of the woman james devers married..would anyone be able to suggest where i should go next on my research..public records..? Census records..PJ Clark the historian in Ballina who was on the programme with Chris Moyles is a friend of my cousins Martin Devers )..he threw some information our way..but now we are at a dead end. I believe James's army no was 32328. The Connaught mutiny is a very interesting subject. It is also very tragic and sad.When a man loses his life there are no heroes, and yes i agree there were terrible things done. You have to be Irish to understand. Any help from the forum would be greatly appreciated..best wishes and god bless Steve ( mad paddy ) my website www.2ndbattalionroyalulsterrifles.com

[mad paddy]

Hello all. Havn't been on the forum for a while but saw the thread I was just reading the post about the Connaughts mutiny very interesting. I am a Devers. My mother is Kathleen Devers from Ballina. James Devers from the Mutiny was from Ballina. I am almost certain he is related to myself. Finding out where and how is the problem. I heard from my cousin in mayo that my great grand father had 21 children..all devers. How he found the time to work who knows..he made shoes. I know the name of the woman james devers married..would anyone be able to suggest where i should go next on my research..public records..PJ Clark the historian in Ballina who was on the programme with Chris Moyles is a friend of my cousins ( Martin Devers )..he threw some information our way..but now we are at a dead end. I believe James's army no was 32328. The Connaught mutiny is a very interesting subject. It is also very tragic and sad.When a man loses his life there are no heroes, and yes i agree there were terrible things done. You have to be Irish to understand. Any help from the forum would be greatly appreciated..best wishes and god bless Steve ( mad paddy ) my website www.2ndbattalionroyalulsterrifles.com

I would just like to add that i was not offended in anyway by PJs comments. Why should his comments be reported. We are all adults. To suggest that someone, referred to as a hero, would shoot ' them down in masse ' is offensive and ignorant of the facts. It shows a lack of understanding and knowledge. The mutiny under the circumstances was not right. But i can also understand it from the mutineers point of view. It comes from a point of view of knowing what it is like to be occupied by another country. Isnt that why we fought the German army in two world wars. With occupation comes all the traits of an occupier. Surpression of the people who have a lawful right to live their lives the way they want to live it. Just because the books say it is right..does not mean it is right..after all wasnt that what the British were doing in India...exactly the same as they were doing in Ireland.

[Connaught Stranger]

I would just like to add that i was not offended in anyway by PJs comments. Why should his comments be reported. We are all adults. To suggest that someone, referred to as a hero, would shoot ' them down in masse ' is offensive and ignorant of the facts. It shows a lack of understanding and knowledge. The mutiny under the circumstances was not right. But i can also understand it from the mutineers point of view. It comes from a point of view of knowing what it is like to be occupied by another country. Isnt that why we fought the German army in two world wars. With occupation comes all the traits of an occupier. Surpression of the people who have a lawful right to live their lives the way they want to live it. Just because the books say it is right..does not mean it is right..after all wasnt that what the British were doing in India...exactly the same as they were doing in Ireland.

To put it simply Paddy,

No, it was not the same at all.

Connaught Stranger, formerly from Castlebar, County Mayo.

[mad paddy]

sorry,  can you clarify your point..thanks paddy murts

[museumtom]

Here is one for your records. William John Coman, sentenced to 15 years released in 1923 from Cashel. I have his records including his signed application for release from Maidstone on hearing of the death of Michael Collins.
Regards.
Tom.

[Connaught Stranger]

sorry,  can you clarify your point..thanks paddy murts

Hi Paddy,

You make a basic sweeping generalization with the words:-

"Surpression of the people who have a lawful right to live their lives the way they want to live it."

that could very well be a description of Anarchy

and

"after all wasnt that what the British were doing in India...exactly the same as they were doing in Ireland."

that is your opinion which you are entitled too, however the historical facts are far different.

A, Simply put Ireland, being part of the United Kingdom, no more or no less than Wales or Scotland, under both Catholic and

Protestant Kings and Queens at times, was more of a local Policing action, for the British Army,

and at no point in time were there massive amounts of the citizens of Ireland behind the "Rebels."

B, With regards India, the British were invited in by many local royalty and rulers, they did not invade and suppress the

population on a mere whim.

To delve further will bring this thread into the realms of Political discussion,

something that is frowned upon, and rightly so, because the discussion has the potential to ignite passions

and all civilized argument goes out the window, when National passions are aroused.

Connaught Stranger.

[mad paddy]

hello, i was merely expressing a view to the earlier post that was added about the mass shooting, which i found very offensive. As for your comments regarding Ireland, to believe that Ireland was policed by the British Army and that is all they did is rubbish. It depends on which part of Irish history you are looking at. Throughout Irish history there have been many rebellions against the Crown, and there were many atrocities committed. These rebellions would not have taken place, if it had not been for the support they received. You seem to forget that the Crown, throughout Irish history, and it is a fact tried to exterminate the Irish race. That is in the history books ( The history of the Irish Race by Seamus MacManus ) The Irish Volunteers of the Great War went to fight in the hope that the Home Rule Bill would be introduced, that they would sway the opinion of the English Governemnt. They wanted their Freedom, not to be ruled by the crown. People living the way they wish to live does not suggest ' anarchy ' its called having freedom of choice. Each of those Volunteers wanted Ireland to be free. The British Government treated the Irish like dirt. That is a fact. They knew what the Black and Tans were and they knew what they were like. The Myth exists that the Black and Tans were all ex cons. They were not. A high percentage were ex Army, ex veterans who could not find work after the Great War.

To belive that the British were invited into India, like a group of gentry is also a farce. They exploited their situation there over commerce and trade, and thousand upon thousands of innocent Indians were killed in the process. The same happened in South Africa over wealth and minerals. The Irish lads in the Connaught Rangers although wrong, had the courage to stand up and say, this is wrong. I dont mind you giving your point of view, and this is not the place to express it our inner feelings, but dont tell me my Irish History, ive read the book from cover to cover. There is no excuse for Imperialists, Empire builders or dictators, and for someone to initiate the point with masse shootings of some men who belived in what they belived is not on. I will leave the matter at that.

[Connaught Stranger]

hello, i was merely expressing a view to the earlier post that was added about the mass shooting, which i found very offensive. As for your comments regarding Ireland, to believe that Ireland was policed by the British Army and that is all they did is rubbish. It depends on which part of Irish history you are looking at. Throughout Irish history there have been many rebellions against the Crown, and there were many atrocities committed. These rebellions would not have taken place, if it had not been for the support they received. You seem to forget that the Crown, throughout Irish history, and it is a fact tried to exterminate the Irish race. That is in the history books ( The history of the Irish Race by Seamus MacManus ) The Irish Volunteers of the Great War went to fight in the hope that the Home Rule Bill would be introduced, that they would sway the opinion of the English Governemnt. They wanted their Freedom, not to be ruled by the crown. People living the way they wish to live does not suggest ' anarchy ' its called having freedom of choice. Each of those Volunteers wanted Ireland to be free. The British Government treated the Irish like dirt. That is a fact. They knew what the Black and Tans were and they knew what they were like. The Myth exists that the Black and Tans were all ex cons. They were not. A high percentage were ex Army, ex veterans who could not find work after the Great War.

To belive that the British were invited into India, like a group of gentry is also a farce. They exploited their situation there over commerce and trade, and thousand upon thousands of innocent Indians were killed in the process. The same happened in South Africa over wealth and minerals. The Irish lads in the Connaught Rangers although wrong, had the courage to stand up and say, this is wrong. I dont mind you giving your point of view, and this is not the place to express it our inner feelings, but dont tell me my Irish History, ive read the book from cover to cover. There is no excuse for Imperialists, Empire builders or dictators, and for someone to initiate the point with masse shootings of some men who belived in what they belived is not on. I will leave the matter at that.

Dear Paddy,

thank you for your rant, you have just proved the points I made in my last post,

You have a very Nationalistic narrow view of what constitutes as Irish history,

(seems to aflict more than a few from the Ballina area, and I should know I lived in Mayo for years

and served there with the Irish Army.)

But I think it time for you to read a few other books, and by that I do not mean An Phoblact!

(and your comments about the British wanting to exterminate the Irish Race prove it.)

Even if Home Rule was provided you would ultimately still have been under the Crown, just the same as Scotland and Wales.

By the way only a small fraction of the Connaught Rangers mutinied, the majority were happy in the service of the Crown like many others who took the King or Queens Shilling.

Anyway this is off topic. So I will end my response here.

Connaught Stranger.

[IPT]

This is going nowhere fast.

[stiletto_33853]

OK Guys,
This is the second complaint the moderators have had with regard to this thread and I have to agree with IPT's post above.

Andy

[mhifle]

Hi,
      Just came across this. Unfortunatly it does not give a name.

'The Observer' 9 Oct 1921

Regards Mark

Attached Files

•  escape1921.JPG   58.26K   2 downloads

[valranger]

Hi my informative ones: I have a list of names and numbers, from T. P. Kilfeather's book, "The Connaught Rangers" but no addresses of those Connaught Rangers who mutined in India. Where they were imprisoned, and released from, English jails. I know of 29 names  (again no addresses) who were released from Maidstone and one from Parkhurst in January, 1923. That leaves thirty-nine. This is the only list I have found.  I had two Ballina soldiers -- James Joseph Devers (No. 32609), Patrick Joseph Mangan (no. 35250) -- and now Valentine Delaney (no. 35200), whom I've just discovered in a write-up of the Mutiny in a local Mayo paper in 1934  which said he was from Ballina, Co. Mayo. I doubt this.  I can find no trace of him in the census of 1901 or 1911 in Ballina. He was married to Eugene Egan's sister from Claremorris, Co. Mayo . Eugene (no. 32295) was also sentenced to death for his part in the Mutiny. Delany had emigrated to America by 1934. Can anybody shed any light on him? Also I have found in another write-up that Patrick Mangan was the last the mutineers to die. Kindest regards.

Hello, I just joined the forum a few days ago and was surprised and delighted to see my father's name, Valentine Delaney, in your post. I have a copy of his birth certificate before me. (I had to get it so that my son and daughter could obtain Irish citizenship). Under place of birth it says Ballinastoka. His mother was Juliana Dillon and his father John Delaney. John was a school teacher. Both father and mother died and left the children orphaned. He was NOT married to Eugene Egan's sister.  I'm living in New Jersey, USA and would love to hear from you. My email address is bdelaney67 AT verizon DOT net.
Bill Delaney

Edited by MagicRat, 26 February 2010 - 07:10 AM.
Email editted to deter spammers

[archangel9]

Bill,

Valentine Delaney is on the 1911 census at 12 in Rockfield (Ballyhowly, Mayo). He is staying with a Dillon family and is recorded as nephew.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/page...ckfield/732285/

The 1901 census web site is down at the moment so I can't check there for him.

He doesn't appear to have had any service during the great war as he doesn't have a medal index card.
He is lsited here -

http://irishmedals.org/gpage6.html

as in T. P. Kilfeather's book, "The Connaught Rangers". But it is important to note that all the numbers seem to be incorrect. See this post -

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=141212&hl=

His service records could well be with the MoD -

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDef...cePersonnel.htm

Hope this helps.

John

[johnny_doyle]

How come this topic is in the Mid East & North Africa thread rather than in the India or Ireland threads?

Numbers seem to be an issue with the CR mutineers. Even the CWGC numbers are odd :

James Daly listed as 7144396 rather than 35232 (formerly 6314 Royal Irish Regiment)
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1498907

John Miranda listed as 7144229 rather than as 35038
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1481689

Any idea if these are prisoner numbers rather than Army service numbers?

In the case of L/Cpl Patrick Smyth number 10079, CWGC appear to have got it totally wrong showing Pte J Smyth 11264 in Glasnevin :
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1482038
Patrick Smyth's service records are on Ancestry showing his enlistment in 1910 and then his re-enlistment in 1919 (as Smythe rather than Smyth) and recording his death at Solon 1/7/1920

Peter Sear's number is recorded correctly (though he had served as number 1730 Connaught Rangers thru most of the war before being moved to 369 Prisoner of War Company, Labour Corps in July 1918)
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...asualty=1481973

When Smyth and Sears were reburied in Glasnevin in 1970 they were placed in the same grave (SD 28). Daly was reburied in his home town.

John Miranda remains buried in India. His father appears to have been a sailor from Brazil; his mother was born in Liverpool (as was John Miranda) but her father appears to have been a Swedish born British subject according to the 1901 census. His brother Joseph served with the RGA during the war; re-enlisted in the Scots Guards in 1919 but discharged 10/6/1920 after being imprisoned "by the Civil Power" for theft.

[mhifle]

Hi,

In 1920 under Army Order 388 each regiment was allocated a new block of numbers:

Connaught Rangers 7143001 – 7177000

Regards Mark

[johnny_doyle]

thanks Mark. Totally forgot about the Army re-numbering.

[valranger]

Bill,

Valentine Delaney is on the 1911 census at 12 in Rockfield (Ballyhowly, Mayo). He is staying with a Dillon family and is recorded as nephew.

http://www.census.nationalarchives.ie/page...ckfield/732285/

The 1901 census web site is down at the moment so I can't check there for him.

He doesn't appear to have had any service during the great war as he doesn't have a medal index card.
He is lsited here -

http://irishmedals.org/gpage6.html

as in T. P. Kilfeather's book, "The Connaught Rangers". But it is important to note that all the numbers seem to be incorrect. See this post -

http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...=141212&hl=

His service records could well be with the MoD -

http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDef...cePersonnel.htm

Hope this helps.

John

Archangel9, (John)

Thank you for all the information. The 1911 census was a revelation I am sharing with the rest of the Delaneys. My father's number was 35074. It is on the document (4/9/20) that sentenced him to death.

Bill