27 replies to this topic

[Martin Elliget]

On the topic of confusion around graves and identities (recent commemorations in Non-comms), how common was it for soldiers to be exhumed and moved to another grave? The WILLS family of Werribee, Victoria, were hard hit by Fromelles with the loss of two sons, George "Dick" Wills and Robert Wills, both privates of 29th Bn (also a cousin, Robert Harker, of the 31st Bn). In Robert's AIF service record, the following letter to his mother appears:

20th April, 1920

Dear Madam.

With reference to my communication of the 18th
January, 1917, regarding the regrettable loss of your son the late
No. 651 Private R.J. Wills, 29th Battalion, I am now in receipt of
further advice which shows that his remains have been exhumed from
grave No. 7334, Tottenham Cemetery, Tottenham, London, and re-interred
in grave No. 7357 in the same Cemetery.

This work is carried out with every measure of care
and reverence in the presence of a Chaplain.

Yours faithfully,

Major,
Officer i/c Base Records


No mention of why it was done but I take it was purely for reorganisation of the cemetery. It just seemed a little unusual to me, given that it was over 3 years after he had died.

regards,

Martin

[CGM]

Hello Martin,
Private Wills is commemorated on the Memorial in Tottenham Cemetery.
Click on the thumbnails , then click again for enlarged images.






Regards
CGM

[CGM]

I am planning to go back before Christmas so if no one has explained it by then I will look in the registers and see if the entries help.

Regards
CGM

[Fedelmar]

it could have been to place him near someone else or to have the unit/aif all together.

Bright Blessings
Sandra

[River97]

This is from the CWGC Debt of Honour:

"Tottenham Cemetery contains burials of both wars. Most of the 291 First World War graves are in a plot on the western side of the cemetery, backed by a Screen Wall bearing the names of those buried both there and elsewhere in the cemetery, whose graves could not be individually marked. There are 211 burials of the Second World War, mostly scattered, but 30 graves form a small plot facing the First World War plot. Again, some graves could not be individually marked and these casualties are commemorated on supplementary panels to the Screen Wall."

It does seem strange to be moved 23 graves (even though it could have been for concentration purposes) and then be commemorated on the screen wall as the grave could not be 'individually marked'

Cheers Andy.

[Martin Elliget]

Thanks for that, CGM. I have no personal connection to these two men - I just happened to see a memorial notice posted in The Argus newspaper (Melbourne) in 1920. I'm sure that relatives, if they're searching and happen to visit this forum, would appreciate seeing those. Don't go to any trouble with the register. My question was out of curiousity.

Thanks, Sandra. You may be right that it was to place him near someone or some group. Initially, I thought it may have been to have the brothers together (their AIF service numbers are consecutive, so they probably signed up together) but his brother is buried at Rue-Petillon Military Cemetery, Fleurbaix. It would seem to me that once a man had been laid to rest in a grave, there would have to be fairly compelling reasons to move him 3 years later.

Sadly the first report the mother received about Robert was that he was wounded and that it was "not stated as being serious". In actual fact, he had died of wounds 4 days prior to the date of the letter. In his record, it says he was:

Buried "Heroe's Corner"
Tottenham Cemetery
Grave No.7334 (in pencil, presumably written later, it looks to be the word "exhumation").

For reference, here are the details of the WILLS brothers and their cousin (note that the mother referred to George as Dick in the newspaper notice):

WILLS, GEORGE CHARLES
Private
Australian Infantry, A.I.F.
29th Bn.
20/07/1916
age 28
Service no 652
Son of James and Thyriza Wills, of Werribee, Victoria, Australia.
RUE-PETILLON MILITARY CEMETERY, FLEURBAIX
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=299073
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1

WILLS, ROBERT JOSEPH
Private
Australian Infantry, A.I.F.
29th Bn.
02/08/1916
age 24
Service no 651
Son of James and Thyza Wills, of Werribee, Victoria, Australia.
TOTTENHAM CEMETERY
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=387248
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1

HARKER, ROBERT HERD
Private
Australian Infantry, A.I.F.
31st Bn.
20/07/1916
Service no 345
Son of Thomas and Catherine Harker, of Yallock, Victoria, Australia.
RUE-PETILLON MILITARY CEMETERY, FLEURBAIX
http://www.cwgc.org/search/casualty_detail...casualty=298530
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1


Thanks.

Martin

[Martin Elliget]

Thanks Andy. Yes it does seem a little strange. I wonder if the cemetery or the CWGC got their records mixed up and needed to do an exhumation to confirm the identity in that grave, then, as he was already exhumed, decided to move him nearer his comrades. We may never know. Strange also that he's commemorated on the wall too, though I suppose that happened occasionally. Better twice than not at all.

cheers,

Martin

[NigelS]

This has reminded me of something I chanced across a while back - I can't remember how or why - but there are at least three WWI Australian servicemen (there may well be others) who were exhumed from Aldershot Military cemetery and reburied at Brookwood Military Cemetery. I wondered at the time whether this may have been to concentrate Australian burials at the one location, but clearly, if this was the intention, it could not have been completed. Geoff's Search Engine  (searching with Regiment/Corp: 'Australia' & cemetery: 'Aldershot Military Cemetery') reports that there are no Australian Forces men now buried at Aldershot. Here are the details of the three men that I do know of:

CWGC
Name: COGGER, EMILE ERNEST
Initials: E E
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Australian Infantry, A.I.F.
Unit Text: 23rd Bn.
Date of Death: 22/07/1916
Service No: 3783
Additional information: Son of Thomas and Evelyn Cogger, of Spring Hill, Victoria, Australia.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. I. I.
Cemetery: BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY

Service record Pg5: 22nd July 1916: Died of Disease (Tonsilitis)  Connaught Hospital, Aldershot; buried C of E ground Aldershot Military Cemetery grave 2004
Service Record Pg 28: 5th March 1917: Letter detailing burial in plot 2004,  C of E ground, Aldershot Military Cemetery
Service Record Pg3:   19th Apr 1920: Letter notifying exhumation from grave 2004 Aldershot Cemetery and re-internment in grave 320, Australian Section F, Brookwood Cemetery

CWGC
Name: OSMOND, LESLIE
Initials: L
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Australian Infantry, A.I.F.
Unit Text: 56th Bn.
Age: 20
Date of Death: 12/11/1916
Service No: 2807
Additional information: Son of Eliza Osmond (now Milburn), of Echuca, Victoria, Australia. Native of Sydney.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. H. 2.
Cemetery: BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY

Service Record Pg 29:  15th Nov  1916:  burial at  Military Cemetery ALDERSHOT
Service Record Pg 49:   27th July 1921: Letter relating to permanent headstone; information needed in order to allow completion  of work at BROOKWOOD;  work presently suspended because of lack of  this information.

CWGC
Name: TYLER, CHARLES HAVELOCK
Initials: C H
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Private
Regiment/Service: Australian Light Trench Mortar Battery
Unit Text: 11th
Age: 31
Date of Death: 10/08/1918
Service No: 2899
Additional information: Son of William and Eliza Jane Tyler, of "The Garden," Shaw, Melksham, Wilts, England. Native of Erlestoke, nr. Devizes, England.
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: IV. I. 2.
Cemetery: BROOKWOOD MILITARY CEMETERY

Service Record Pg 11: 13th August 1918:  Buried Aldershot Cemetery  Grave No. 20. A4. C of E consecrated ground
(My note: doesn’t state whether  Military or other cemetery but probably Military)
Service Record  Pg 35: 22nd  August 1918: Report of funeral  - grave given as A4; Military funeral
Service Records Pg 21: UNDATED: Brookwood Military Cemetery Plot 4. ROW I. Grave .

There are 352 Australian Force's burials at Brookwood, and it could well be that others of these were exhumed from either Aldershot or elsewhere in the UK; it would be interesting to know whether anybody else has come across indication of  this in  service records. Does anyone have any idea of the total number of Australian force's burials in the UK and the number of cemeteries involved?

EDIT: My mistake    I've just looked at the CWGC records again all 8 Australian burials  have both grave references & appear on the screen wall so most of the following is irrelevant so crossed through! I wonder whether they have CWGC or private commemorations?

I notice that none of the AF burials at Tottenham have grave locations, as all the commemorations are given as 'Screen Wall'. I Agree that it seems odd that the graves locations don't appear to be individually identified; most of the Australian  service records I've looked at do give plot references - I'm wondering if the official cemetery records may have been lost or the cemetery disrupted (bombed in WWII, possibly?) I wouldn't have thought that any burials in a UK cemetery even during WWI would have been made without detailed records having been kept.  I also wonder when the screen wall was erected, it might give some indication as to when the grave locations might have been lost.

Incidentally, my Grandmother is buried in plot 7426 (died 11/11/18 of Spanish Flu) but I've yet to visit.

NigelS

[CGM]

The title "Heroes Corner", at Tottenham Cemetery, seems to have slipped into disuse over the years; certainly I haven't found a current member of staff who knows of it.
Martin, I probably will look Robert up as I'll be looking at WW1 registers anyway, and he is AIF, which makes him a bit special to me.

Regards,
CGM

[CGM]

............
With reference to my communication of the 18th
January, 1917, regarding the regrettable loss of your son the late
No. 651 Private R.J. Wills, 29th Battalion, I am now in receipt of
further advice which shows that his remains have been exhumed from
grave No. 7334, Tottenham Cemetery, Tottenham, London, and re-interred
in grave No. 7357 in the same Cemetery.

This work is carried out with every measure of care
and reverence in the presence of a Chaplain.
Yours faithfully,
Major,
Officer i/c Base Records

No mention of why it was done but I take it was purely for reorganisation of the cemetery. It just seemed a little unusual to me, given that it was over 3 years after he had died.
regards,
Martin

I can tell you that grave 7334 is a shared grave. Many casualties who died in the local Military hospital were buried in shared graves. What I don't know yet is whether grave 7357 is a single grave or also shared.

[NigelS]

A scan through the AI records for the men buried at Tottenham gives the following:

BEARD, Frederick Alfred originally buried plot 7331 re-buried, plot 7317
LOW, D originally buried in plot 7331, re-buried in 7318

FEEHAN, Richard Victor Patrick originally buried plot 7338, re-buried 7319
BEAUMONT, Harold Lionel originally buried plot 7338, re-buried plot 7322

SMITH, Reginald original plot not given, buried in 7320 today (no mention in service record of reburial)

WHITEHEAD, W originally buried in plot 7305 buried in plot 7355 today (no mention in service record of reburial)

STAVELEY, William George originally buried in plot 7008, re-buried in 7356

WILLS, Robert Joseph originally buried in plot 7334 re-buried in plot 7357

So Beard and Low  (died 30/07/16 & 04/08/16) must have originally shared a common grave and similarly Feehan and Beaumont (22/9/16 & 25/9/16) each death of a given pair being within a few days. With the exception of Smith, where a re-burial can't be determined from the records, all  the others have been exhumed and reburied so it does look likely that they may all have originally been in shared graves but it was considered necessary to have individual burials at a later  date. It would be interesting to know whether the plots that they were moved from  now  contain a single burial from around the same time, ie the remaining occupant(s) of what originally was a shared plot.

NigelS

[Martin Elliget]

This has reminded me of something I chanced across a while back - I can't remember how or why - but there are at least three WWI Australian servicemen (there may well be others) who were exhumed from Aldershot Military cemetery and reburied at Brookwood Military Cemetery

Thanks Nigel. I checked the service record of the first, Emile Cogger, and the letter from OIC Base Records is worded almost exactly the same as that to Robert Wills' mother. It's starting to sound like it was perhaps not uncommon. Btw, in your notes I think you meant to write p.23 for the letter re his exhumation in his service record.

Thanks for your subsequent note too. Do you think that, in various cemeteries, they buried some groups of casualties in shared graves, not knowing when the war was going to end and to what extent their cemetery could cope with a sustainted level of casualties, and then after the war, they were able to redress the situation to a certain extent, i.e. give the lads a bit more room?

regards,

Martin

[Martin Elliget]

Martin, I probably will look Robert up as I'll be looking at WW1 registers anyway, and he is AIF, which makes him a bit special to me.

Thanks, CGM. I'd be interested in what you find.

cheers,

Martin

[Siege Gunner]

Do you think that, in various cemeteries, they buried some groups of casualties in shared graves, not knowing when the war was going to end and to what extent their cemetery could cope with a sustainted level of casualties, and then after the war, they were able to redress the situation to a certain extent, i.e. give the lads a bit more room?

This evidently depended on local policy and the availability of space, Martin.  Earlsfield cemetery, near me, was used by the nearby 3rd London General Hospital and contains a total of 477 Great War burials.  The British military plot is a large rectangular area without individual headstones and with a Screen Wall, so evidently a collective grave into which coffins were 'stacked' as deaths occurred.  This would seem to reflect the uncertainty (and sheer number of burials) that you mention.  However, there are 34 Australian casualties buried there too, and they are all buried in individual graves, in a separate kerbed Australian plot that was made during the war as deaths occurred.

[Martin Elliget]

Thanks, Siege Gunner. Yes I imagine it was down to individual cemeteries' policy and situation. Interesting that a special Australian plot was made during war-time in Earlsfield. The thing that piqued my interest, as I read these service records, is that no explanation was given, i.e. "Due to re-organisation of the cemetery, the remains of your son.." It was good that they were notified of the change, of course.

[Siege Gunner]

It was good that they were notified of the change, of course.

With no explanation of why, I'm not so sure it was good  -  but perhaps OIC Base Records didn't know why.

Incidentally, I have photos of the Australian plot and individual headstones at Earlsfield if anyone wants copies.  Most date to autumn 1915 and summer/autumn 1916.

[truthergw]

I have absolutely no actual knowledge but I have just read through the thread. I see mention of a screen wall at the burial site with names on it. Could it be that the wall was built on the site of existing graves and therefore the remains had to be re-interred?

[CGM]

Hello Tom,
This had occured to me, especially as the date of the re-interment (1920) could well have been during the planning stage for the Memorial. However the CWGC list Private Wills in his new grave but still list at least one person in the grave Private Wills was moved from - Private C. D. Baird Mddx Regt.

(The screen wall is the semi-circular wall behind the cross, in #2. The names are on panels below the words Their Name Liveth for Evermore, so it is a substantial construction.)

[NigelS]

Looking through the CWGC records for Tottenham:

Plot 7331 (original location for AIF  Beard [d. & Low before moved to plots 7317 & 7318 respectively)
there are 2 burials listed: Burchell, JH [Gloucs d. 17/7/16] & Jones, J [Northum Fus d. 13/7/16]

Plot 7334 (original location for AIF Wills, RJ before moved to plot 7357)
there are 3 burials listed: Dyster G [RFA d.6/8/16]; Fuller, GF [RFA d.10/8/16]; Baird CD [Middx d.6/8/16]

Plot 7338 (original location for AIF Feehan, RVP  [d. 22/9/16] & Beaumont, HL [d.25/9/16] before moved to plots 7319 & 7322 respectively)
there is 1 burials listed: Franklin, WR [Middx d.26/8/16];

Plot 7305 (original location for AIF Whitehead, W  [d. 2/10/16] before moved to plot 7355)
there are 4 burials: Howard, W [Yorks & Lancs d.3/10/16]; Tottem, CJC [Middx d.1/11/16]; White, T [Middx d.21/10/16] ; Herrett, J [R. Fus d. 20/9/16]

Plot 7008 (original location for AIF  Staveley WG [d.12/11/16] before moved to plot 7356)
There does not appear to be any other CWGC record associated with this plot; the number seems totally at odd with other burials of the same timescale - possibly plot number 7008 was wrong, or shared with a civilian burial?

Plot 7320 - this might be the original burial location for AIF Smith, R [d.9/9/16] his service record does not mention an exhumation

It would be wrong to assume that any of these burials are in their original plots, it's possible, like the AIF men, that they may also have been moved at some stage.
None of the plots occupied by AIF men now appear to be shared.

Although not by any means conclusive proof, there is a possible explanation for the exhumation & reburial of the AIF men in individual plots: insistence by  the AIF to have its fallen - when possible - buried in individual graves; the Burial Report which is included in service record (page 61) of TM Allen (AFC, 1313) who is buried in a private grave at Ashtead, Surrey  has the following, apparently standard, paragraph included:

 Allen.jpg   27.59K   0 downloads

I would imagine that the AIF would have had to have paid  - in addition to the charges for the exhumation & reburial - extra for  having the burials in individual plots, a practise apparently not followed by the British military even on UK soil.  Amongst family papers I have a receipt for my grandmother's grave at Tottenham issued by the 'Tottenham & Wood Green Burial Board' in November '18:

...in consideration of the sum of Two pounds seventeen shillings and six pence to be paid by .--------- do hereby grant unto ------- the exclusive Right of Burial in the Grave Space No. ----- in the consecrated portion of the cemetery, situate at TOTTENHAM......

I would be interesting to know whether the AIF graves are split - this is assuming that they do have individual headstones - as indicated by the plot numbering, or whether they are grouped with the break in the numbering occuring because there are two rows involved.

I'm still intrigued as to why the men  who were buried Aldershot Military cemetery were moved to Brookwood though as, so far as I'm able to determine, there  do not appear to have been multiple WWI burials  at Aldershot other than when other family members were involved.

NigelS

[CGM]

Nigel, the instructions to bury all soldiers in single graves very probably explains the Tottenham exhumations. A good find. Was it dated at all? Was it after these men had all died and been buried?

I have relatives in Tottenham Cemetery who died between the wars and they are both in common graves - it was the way then, unless the family could specify otherwise.

I have learnt that all the registers from Tottenham have been borrowed by DECEASED ON LINE. I do hope they are back in time for my next visit in a few weeks time!

[NigelS]

Allen was killed when his plane crashed on 27th April '17 and was buried on the 30th, so it was about 5 months after the last AIF burial at Tottenham.

I won't guarantee that this link will work, but if it does you should be able to see the page (note the undertaker's name - it couldn't be more appropriate for a man in that following!); the report is  also interesting in that it gives details of the burial ceremony.

http://naa16.naa.gov.au/rs_images/ShowImag...mp;S=61&T=R

(failing that use 'name search' at  http://www.naa.gov.au/collection/explore/d...i.aspx#section3  with 'Allen' and then enter '1313' for service number after selecting 'refine search')

It may well be that the AIF introduced a single grave policy after the burials had already been made at Tottenham, alternatively maybe those burials weren't overseen by the AIF (although I would have thought the latter less likely)

Is DECEASED ON LINE  a resource  for clairvoyants ?   (sorry!)

NigelS

[CGM]

Is DECEASED ON LINE a resource for clairvoyants ? (sorry!)

NigelS

[CGM]

The link worked fine, thank you Nigel. I noticed that it the words "single grave no____" are part of the form (although in this case the family were involved so the grave is a private grave).

It would be very interesting to see reports of the original Tottenham AIF funerals in the local papers.
Another must-do for when school breaks up. Sadly the Christmas break is short and offices and libraries are closed for part of the time.

[Martin Elliget]

That was a very good find, Nigel! We're so lucky here in Australia that the NAA provides a large chunk of their holdings, particularly historical war records, for free (let's hope it stays that way). Your find inspired me to spend the last few hours searching through NAA documents relating to war graves. And I've found something quite interesting.

Title: Imperial War Graves Commission
Date range: 1917 - 1930
234 pages (reverse chronological order)
http://naa12.naa.gov.au/scripts/imagine.as...mp;I=1&SE=1


I haven't read it all (!) but a quick browse through reveals memos, etc. from Churchill, Fabian Ware, etc. to departments of the Australian government.

On page 213, there is a memorandum dated 6 Aug 1917 from the Acting Secretary of Defence (Mr. Thomas Trumble) to Secretary of the Prime Minister's Department (both of Australia).

"..the Imperial
Government had decided that all Dominion officers and men
of the Australian Imperial Force dying in the United Kingdom
would be buried at the expense of the Imperial Government
in single graves, I am directed to inform you that a decode
of a similar cablegram from the High Commissioner to the
Right Hon. the Prime Minister was received from you by this
Department under your memorandum of the 12th. idem, reading:-

"Hughes - Secretary of State for the Colonies
advises Imperial Government has undertaken
at its own expense burial in single graves
Dominion officers and men who die in this
country, that land for purpose will be
acquired in perpetuity and that arrange-
ments will be made to ensure every possible
care graves. Adds unanimous wish everyone
in this country that Imperial Government
undertake charge so that last resting
places Oversea brothers may be not unworthy
of their sacrifice, and kinsfolk may be
certain graves tended loving care". - FISHER.

Note: Billy Hughes, Prime Minister of Australia. Fisher probably The Right Hon. Andrew Fisher, appointed to the Imperial War Graves Commission by the Australian government.

The above supports the directions you found in that service record about single graves.

So on costs, surprisingly, it seems that the opposite was in fact true - the British goverment paid for the burial of AIF officers and men in single graves in England, not the Australian goverment. I suspect that, due to the exigencies of war, AIF casualties were sometimes buried in common graves at the time but later, to honour the commitment given, were exhumed and reburied in single graves.

I found the above document by searching just for the word GRAVES for the years 1914-1920 but also added a special term in keywords to only return documents for which the scanned images are online (saves wading through lots of documents you cannot view). As it would get formatted here as an email address (it contains the AT symbol), I've attached an image of the search below.

regards,

Martin

Attached Files

•  naa_search.jpg   7.24K   0 downloads

[Martin Elliget]

From p.214 of the abovementioned NAA document, the reply via the High Commissioner's Office was:

"With reference to your telegram of the 9th.
March kindly convey to Secretary of State warm
appreciation of Commonwealth Government and people
of Australia for sympathetic and gracious action
of British people at home in regard to the burial and
care of graves of Australian soldiers who are laid at
rest in the land of their ancestors."