435 replies to this topic

[gilles]

News in french

news of internet !!!

Nord: les dépouilles de soldats anglais de 1914 découvertes sur un chantier

Le 22/11/2009 à 14:34

Les dépouilles de 15 soldats anglais tombés au début de la Première Guerre mondiale ont été retrouvés par hasard entre mercredi et vendredi sur un chantier de la commune de Beaucamps-Ligny (Nord), a-t-on appris dimanche auprès du maire.

Un grutier, qui creusait en vue d'installer un champ d'épuration pour des logements sociaux, a heurté mercredi avec sa pelleteuse le crâne d'un de ces soldats du York and Lancaster Regiment, a indiqué à l'AFP le maire de Beaucamps-Ligny, confirmant une information du quotidien La voix du Nord.

"Nous avons averti la gendarmerie et le procureur, puis en creusant un peu plus, nous avons retrouvé des effets militaires, comme des balles, ou des morceaux de ceinturons", explique Frédéric Motte, maire de cette commune de 940 habitants.

"Ce qui nous a permis tout de suite d'identifier ces soldats anglais, ce sont leurs boutons", gravés aux initiales du régiment, poursuit Frédéric Motte, qui connaît bien ces fantassins anglais, notamment depuis la découverte dans son jardin d'un premier corps en mars 2006.

La Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC), organisme qui conserve la mémoire des soldats du Commonwealth, a stocké la totalité des dépouilles qui pourraient être enterrées au cimetière militaire de Fleurbaix (Nord) ou au cimetière de Fromelles (Nord) qui sera inauguré en juillet 2010.

L'un des corps a été retrouvé avec son quart d'eau dans une main et, près de l'autre main, une pipe, selon le maire, qui précise que des pièces de monnaie, des canifs ainsi que des brosses à dents ont également été retrouvés.

Les soldats professionnels du York and Lancaster Regiment avaient été pris, entre le 18 et le 20 octobre 1914, dans "un échange de coups de feu extrêmement violent" avec les soldats allemands, autour du chateau de Flandres de Beaucamps-Ligny, selon Frédéric Motte.

[Jim Smithson]

Thanks for the news.  I wonder whether any can be identified, they seem to have found quite a few artefacts.

Jim

[towisuk]

Basic Google translation....
Tom


North: drafts of English soldiers from 1914 discoveries on a site

22 / 11/2009 To 14: 34

15 English soldiers fallen at the beginning of World War I drafts were found by chance between Wednesday and Friday erection the commune of Beaucamps-Ligny (North), was learned Sunday from the Mayor.

A grutier across to install a field sewage for social housing, struck Wednesday with his skull of one of these soldiers of York and Lancaster Regiment loader, said the Mayor of Beaucamps-Ligny AFP confirming a voice of Northern daily information.

We have notified the gendarmerie and the Attorney, then by digging a little more, we have found the military effects like balls, or belts pieces, explains Frederick Motte, Mayor of the municipality of 940 inhabitants.

"We has allowed immediately to identify these English soldiers, these are their buttons", burned burned to the regiment initials continues Frédéric Motte, familiar with these English infantry, particularly since the discovery in its garden of a first body in March 2006.

The Commonwealth War Graves Commission (CWGC), which preserves the memory of the Commonwealth soldiers body has stored all of drafts which could be buried the Fleurbaix (North) military cemetery or the Fromelles (North) cemetery which will be inaugurated in July 2010.

One body was found with his shift water in one hand and close to the other hand, a pipe, according to the Mayor, which specifies that coins, canifs as well as of toothbrushes were also found.

York and Lancaster Regiment professional soldiers had been caught between 18 and 20 October 1914 in "an extremely violent shooting Exchange" with the German soldiers around of the Beaucamps - Flanders Ligny Castle according to Frédéric Motte.

[MartinBennitt]

please, please, no Google translation

The remains of 15 British soldiers who fell at the beginning of the First World War were found by chance between Wednesday and Friday on a building site at Beaucamps-Ligny (in the Nord départment), the mayor said Sunday.

An excavator driver who was making a hole for sewage works for council housing struck the skull of one of the soldiers of the York and Lancaster Regiment with his blade, the mayor Frédéric Motte told AFP, confirming a report in the daily La voix du Nord.

"We alerted the gendarmes and the prosecutor , then when we dug a bit further we found military artefacts like ammunition and pieces of webbing."
"What enabled us to identify the soldiers immediately was their buttons", which were engraved with the initials of the regiment, added Motte, who knows the British infantry, especially since the discovery of a body in his garden in March 2006.

The CWGC has taken care of all the remains , which could be buried in the military cemetery at Fleurbaix, or in the one at Fromelles which will be opened in July  2010.

One body was found with his water bottle in his hand and a pipe lying near the other hand, said the mayor, who added that coins, clasp knives and toothbrushes had also been found.

The professional soldiers of the York and Lancaster Regiment were involved in an extremely fierce exchange of fire with German troops between October 18 and 20 1914 around the chateau de Flandres at Beaucamps-Ligny, according to Motte.

cheers Martin B

[John Hartley]

I wonder whether any can be identified, they seem to have found quite a few artefacts.

Possible - particularly if CWGC/MoD were prepared to go down the DNA route.

There's very limited numbers involved. By my calculations, York & Lancs has 32 names from these days commemorated on Ploegsteert, almost all of them from the 18th. An examination of the war diary might link location of companies to place of discovery of the bodies.

[PJA]

Please clarify for me, Pals....these would be casualties from the earlier phases of the 1st Ypres fighting ?  Near Neuve Chapelle ?  Strictly speaking, in Artois rather than Flanders ?

Phil

[MartinBennitt]

Beaucamps-Ligny is here

according to Wikip, Beaucamps was just behind the German lines during the war and was destroyed in the 1918 retreat. It was merged with Ligny in 1927

cheers Martin B

[ulsterlad2]

Are they from The Battle of Armentieres, 13 October - 2 November 1914?

[SteveMarsdin]

Good evening All,

Will they go down the DNA route ? From John's posts it seems they've got only a limited number of "possibles" which would seem to make a good case for at least trying ?

The report suggest "possible" burial sites; hopefully they'll wait until all means of individual identification have at least been exhausted.

......and all credit to the builders for stopping when they did.

[SteveMarsdin]

Good evening All,

I forgot to add; thanks, Gilles for bringing it to our attention.

Here is a local press report with photo:

http://www.lavoixdunord.fr/Region/actualit...ans-un-ch.shtml

[towisuk]

"please, please, no Google translation"
Unfortunately French is not one the languages that I'm fluent in...it was the best I could do under the circumstances.... only trying to help!
Tom

[matthew lucas]

very interesting, does anyone know anything of the 7 soldiers buried on the somme, this 14th october i wonder?
matt

[MartinBennitt]

A few more interesting details from the report in the Voix du Nord:

Nous avons le livre de bord de cette unité. Ils sont arrivés le 18 (octobre 1914) au carrefour, connu aujourd'hui sous le nom La Pichotte. Ils se sont fait attaquer ici, ils sont donc remontés vers le château où il y a eu une deuxième attaque et le lendemain, ils ont été repoussés et sont repartis vers Bois Grenier (le 20 octobre). » Selon le registre, trente-deux soldats de l'unité auraient péri à Beaucamps.

According to the mayor, the war diary (no battalion mentioned) states that they arrived at a cross-roads now known as La Pichotte on 18.10.14. They were fired upon and went up to the chateau. The next day they were again attacked and were pushed back to Bois Grenier. A total of 32 soldiers died at Beaucamps, including an officer and two NCOs

On a retrouvé un sifflet qui servait à donner l'assaut, une montre à gousset et un porte-plume en argent. Or dans notre liste, il est dit qu'il y avait un officier et deux sous-officiers. »
Une gourde, deux pipes, une brosse à dents

A whistle, a pocket-watch and a silver pen-holder implies one was an officer. A water-bottle, two, pipes and a toothbrush were also found, as well as a drummer's badge

Et peut-être aussi un joueur de tambour... « On a retrouvé un petit écusson avec un tambour dessus. » La CWG a aussi collecté deux pipes, une gourde et une brosse à dents... Et là encore, Frédéric Motte a une petite anecdote : « Alors qu'à l'époque en France, les soldats étaient plutôt des ruraux (et je dis ça sans juger), les soldats britanniques, on l'a aussi remarqué à Fromelles, avaient tous des dents très entretenues, d'où la brosse à dents. » Un objet courant chez les soldats de sa Majesté, qui ne devrait donc pas aider à l'identification.

A water-bottle, two, pipes and a toothbrush were also found, as well as a drummer's badge

Motte also comments: "British soldiers all had very good teeth, something which was observed at Fromelles."

cheers Martin B


QUOTE (towisuk @ Nov 22 2009, 09:18 PM) *
"please, please, no Google translation"
Unfortunately French is not one the languages that I'm fluent in...it was the best I could do under the circumstances.... only trying to help!
Tom


Okay Tom, no probs. I don't speak Polish or Scots either



cheers Martin B

[seadog]

very interesting, does anyone know anything of the 7 soldiers buried on the somme, this 14th october i wonder?
matt

Matt what info have you got on this interment. I ask for a couple of genuine reasons the first is that I like many others will be very interested in any discovery made relating to the remains of WW1 soldiers and the second because I have tried to get the CWGC to notify such interments to the public via their web site. This effort was successful for a time and then the CWGC apparently dropped the facility without in my opinion any valid reason.

Regards
Norman

[matthew lucas]

[quote name='seadog' date='Nov 23 2009, 01:21 PM' post='1310747']
Matt what info have you got on this interment. I ask for a couple of genuine reasons the first is that I like many others will be very interested in any discovery made relating to the remains of WW1 soldiers and the second because I have tried to get the CWGC to notify such interments to the public via their web site. This effort was successful for a time and then the CWGC apparently dropped the facility without in my opinion any valid reason.


very little infor i have to say, i happened to be on the somme at the time, even the locals knew nothing about it, so i paid my respects the day after
matt

[seadog]

Thanks Matt, can you let me know where the intermants took place please.

Thanks
Norman

[Scotty]

  Hello Norman,                                
                        There were 9 unidentified British soldiers buried in the Somme area on October 14th. The grave of Pte Phillips at Bray was also rehallowed that day by CWGC Chaplain, Rev John Porter. There was notice of the reburials on the CWGC website in the 'Upcoming Events' link (I think). I only found the notice because I was looking for it and knew the services were scheduled. I was surprised it was only a snippet and not a bit more informative. Scott.

[Connor]

Does anyone know where "near Contalmaison" the bodies were located?

[PJA]

To what might we attribute the recent rise in the numbers of previously unrecovered dead being found on the Western Front ?  Obviously, the mass grave at Pheasant Wood in the Fromelles sector is a thing apart....but there does seem to have been a significant number of "finds" recently.

Has this always been going on ?  Or does the resurgence of interest in the conflict encourage more reporting ?  Might it be proactive work by battlefield archaeoligists ?  There is also, of course, the expansion of road/rail/airport infra sructure that invariably leads to excavation and hence discovery. Then  there is a profound interest in forensic science in the media, which also encourage research into ancestry.

The best part of a million of the dead on the Western Front were not recovered ( guesswork on my part), in addition to those who were buried as unknowns.  I've even wondered whether the EU might formulate some policy regarding this : another job for the Eurocrats !

Phil

[seadog]

Scotty many thanks for posting the CWGC notice of the impending interments, I owe them an apology as I must have missed it. A pity that no info was given as to the timing of these burials as I am sure that anyone in the area at the time would have liked to pay their respects to the fallen.

Regards
Norman

[brucehubbard]

Bodies in farmers' fields are regularly discovered in autumn, rather than spring. On both occasions, ploughing turns up remains.
If the remains are reported in the spring, then the field is trampled over by all and sundry for about six weeks, during the planting season. However, if the bodies are found in the autumn, when the crops are in, then having all sorts of officials trampling the fields is less of a problem for the farmers.

Am I just being really cynical?

Bruce

[seadog]

What surprises me sometimes is the total lack of information relating to the type of discoveries as kindly posted by Scotty (Post 17). I may of course be wrong but I do not remember any mention of these finds on the GWF or the Somme Branch of the Royal British Legion website, the very people I would have thought would be involved in the commemoration of the found soldiers.

Whilst the CWGC did record the upcoming interments why was this info removed, after all it could have been retained for a longer period for information purposes even in an archived section. I of course may be completely wrong in my assumptions and if anyone can enlighten me further please do so.

Somme RBL
http://www.rblsomme.org/Welcome.html

Regards
Norman

[seadog]

Does anyone know where "near Contalmaison" the bodies were located?

Hi Connor, I have e-mailed the Chairman of the Somme RBL regarding the circumstances and location of the discoveries and if I get a response I will post it here.

Regards
Norman

[matthew lucas]

i was there when they were buried (ok the day after) no one knew anything about it
matt

[phil1964]

Hello Norman,                                
                        There were 9 unidentified British soldiers buried in the Somme area on October 14th. The grave of Pte Phillips at Bray was also rehallowed that day by CWGC Chaplain, Rev John Porter. There was notice of the reburials on the CWGC website in the 'Upcoming Events' link (I think). I only found the notice because I was looking for it and knew the services were scheduled. I was surprised it was only a snippet and not a bit more informative. Scott.