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Gold Cross of Kara George with Swords


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#1 SGTJOHN

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 07:22 PM

My father #72217 Sgt Henry Harry DESMOND was awarded the Gold Cross of Kara George with Swords while serving with the Royal Horse Artillery in Salonica. He was listed in the London Gazette dated 07 June, 1919. According to the medal citation he was awarded this medal in 1916.

Is there any way that I can find out why he was awarded this medal? One other question - is it possible to find out what battery he was in when he inlisted in 1913 believed to be in London?

Many thanks
Sgt John

#2 HarryBettsMCDCM

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 07:36 PM

It is very unlikely that a Citation for the Karageorge exists,it was probably awarded as an reciprocal "inter~alia" award between Allied Forces,common during the War & extending the Range of Awards available~It is a scarce award to UK recipients.
It is possible that his Record of Service if it survives may shed some light on it{& also his initial Battery & Wartime Batteries} or the Battery War Diary,once you have established that,may have a suggestion,The most likely source will probably be from the contemporary Local Papers,around the time of the LG;from Press Releases.

#3 SGTJOHN

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 08:04 PM

Hi Harry

I have the original citation & medal that was awarded to my father. But, I have no information about how or why he received it. His answer to my question was that " his horse ran away & he got it back" He was listed in the London Gazette dated 27 Nov 1917 & also on 07 June 1919 of which I have copies. Have you any other suggestions as to how I may obtain any more information? Living in Canada makes it more difficult.

Regards
Sgt John

#4 HarryBettsMCDCM

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 08:48 PM

I would suspect that the truth or part of it lies with his explanation,& that it may well have had something to do with the Horses but rather than just "recovering his Runaway" he may have saved the horses from danger etc,under fire,sadly very few Veterans liked to open up & divulge details of incidents & the authorities were lacking in recording much of the Gallantry that occurred,sadly especially that of ORs,his papers may exist on Ancestry?
Does the original Citation give any clues??

#5 rflory

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Posted 18 January 2010 - 09:31 PM

You indicate that he received the award while serving with the RHA but the London Gazette announcement of the award indicates he was RFA. Do you know the brigade or battery with which he served? He was also mentioned in despatches in the London Gazette of 28 November 1917. Regards, Dick Flory

#6 SGTJOHN

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:27 AM

QUOTE (HarryBettsMCDCM @ Jan 18 2010, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I would suspect that the truth or part of it lies with his explanation,& that it may well have had something to do with the Horses but rather than just "recovering his Runaway" he may have saved the horses from danger etc,under fire,sadly very few Veterans liked to open up & divulge details of incidents & the authorities were lacking in recording much of the Gallantry that occurred,sadly especially that of ORs,his papers may exist on Ancestry?
Does the original Citation give any clues??


#7 SGTJOHN

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:31 AM

The only clue shown on the citation is as follows: -

For his dedication to duty and his courgage in action at the Salonica front. The citation was dated July 16, 1918 in Salonica File # 47091

#8 SGTJOHN

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:35 AM

QUOTE (rflory @ Jan 18 2010, 04:31 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You indicate that he received the award while serving with the RHA but the London Gazette announcement of the award indicates he was RFA. Do you know the brigade or battery with which he served? He was also mentioned in despatches in the London Gazette of 28 November 1917. Regards, Dick Flory


#9 SGTJOHN

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 01:51 AM

The citation states he was RHA, the London Gazette shows he was RFA. According to my father he was RHA.

I do not know the brigade or battery but would like to, but I think this would be very difficult to find. I have received information that his records are contained in the "burnt copies" held in the record offices, and that these records are contained in boxes without any without any senblence of order.

John

#10 ForeignGong

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 12:15 PM

QUOTE (SGTJOHN @ Jan 18 2010, 07:22 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
My father #72217 Sgt Henry Harry DESMOND was awarded the Gold Cross of Kara George with Swords while serving with the Royal Horse Artillery in Salonica. He was listed in the London Gazette dated 07 June, 1919. According to the medal citation he was awarded this medal in 1916.

Is there any way that I can find out why he was awarded this medal? One other question - is it possible to find out what battery he was in when he inlisted in 1913 believed to be in London?

Many thanks
Sgt John


Hi Lohn
The Gold Cross of Karageorge with Swords, the gazetted number to British Commonwealth is approx 61
Do you have his whole group or just the cross??

Peter

#11 SGTJOHN

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:01 PM

Peter

Please clarify your question.

John

#12 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 07:56 PM

He was in good company

Field-Marshal The Right Honourable John Denton Pinksfcone, Viscount French, K.P.,
G.C.B., O.M., G.C.V.O., K.C.M.G., Colcael,
Hussars and Irish Guards, and Colonel-in-Chief, Royal Irish Regiment.

Field-Marshal Sir Douglas Haig, K.T., G.C.B.,

16104 (Serjeant William Joseph Blood, M.M., llth Battalion, Worcestershire Regiment (Manchester).

45068 Serjeant Stanley Victor Cordis, M.M., I/1st Surrey Yeomanry (Guildford, Surrey).

72217 Serjeant Henry Harry Desmond, Royal Field Artillery(E. Dulwich, S.E.).
Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry (Swindon).

600 -Serjeant -Thomas Edward Matthews, M.M.; 10th Battalion, Devonshire Regiment (Exmouth).

13913 Serjeant William .Frank Baylor, M.M.. 7th Battalion, Royal Berkshire Regiment (Bow.).

9119 Serjeant (now 2nd Lieutenant) Alfred Tuffield, 1st -Battalion, .Royal Scots Regiment (Rochester).

4439 Sepoy Atma Singh, Sikhs, Indian Army.

68 Company Serjeant-Major Ralph Bale, Somersetshire Light Infantry.

8917 Acting Serjeant Frank Bell, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire Light Infantry.

27807 Gunner Benjamin Bligh, Royal Horse Artillery.

3167 Havildar Chandar Singh, Sappers and Miners, Indian Army.

Quarter-Master-Serjeant William Oliver Chignell, Divisional Signal Company (late No. 50189 Ammunition Column, Royal Field Artillery).

2/9238 Acting Serjeant Michael Cunningham, East Lancashire Regiment.

1/11220 Private James Henry Fynn, South Wales Borderers.

Serjeant Gilbert Grier, Supply and Transport Corps, Indian Army (formerly No. 9339,
North Staffordshire Regiment).

2379 Serjeant George Edwin Horwood, Somersetshire Light Infantry.

22555 Serjeant William House, Gloucestershire Regiment.

32155 Gunner Arthur Bertram Hunnings,.Heavy Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery.

3668 Daffadar Indar Singh, Lancers, Indian Army.

30 Acting Serjeant-Major William Jones, Royal Flying Corps.

2055 Lanoe-Daffadar Kazan Singh, Cavalry,.Indian Army.
1443 Lance-Naik Kesar Singh, Punjabis,.Indian Army.

S/3342 Serjeant John Lees, Royal Highlanders.

4474 Corporal A. MacPherson, Bangalore Rifle-Volunteers.

344 Serjeant George Henry Maggs, Somersetshire Light Infantry.

1740 Havildar Mangal Singh, Pioneers,. Indian Army.

1993 Serjeant George "Mitchell, Royal Highlanders.

927 Naik, Nand Singh, Pioneers, Indian Army.

2047 Corporal Charles O'Brien, Manchester Regiment.

14529 Private George Phillips1, North Staffordshire Regiment.

29 Colour-Havildar Plaru, Punjabis, Indian Army.

Sub-Assistant Burgeon Hawaii Singh., Indian Subordinate Medical Department (a'ttd.
Sikhs).

2461 Havildar Sanwal Ram, Grenadiers, Indian Ariny.

764 Naik Sawan Singh,. Sappers and Miners, Indian Army.

1282 Havildar iSobha Singh, Punjabis, Indian Army.

20 2nd Corporal Harry Tutty, Signal Company (No. 9570, North Staffordshire Regiment).

12688 Hayildar Ujala, Light Infantry, Indian Army.

Assistant Surgeon George Tresham Wrafter, Indian Subordinate Medical Department.

13197 Serjeant Edward Bryan, Royal Dublin Fusiliers.

6/485 Company Serjeant-Major Patrick Daughan, Leinster Regiment.

9103 Private William Martin, Connaught Rangers.

5034 Private Mark McDonnell, Connaught Rangers (now 43180, Royal Inniskilling Fus)


6818 Rifleman (acting Serjeant) Thomas Baker, King's Royal Rifle Corps (Crewton,
Derbyshire).

13788 Corporal Albert Bayley, Royal Lancaster Regiment (Cannock).

10511 Private (acting Lance-Corporal) Albert Edward Bierton, York and Lancaster Regiment (Parkgate, Rotherham).

8127 Private. Willia, Combie, Cameron Highlanders (Edinburgh).

30010 Company Serjeant-Major Harry Crutch, Royal Berkshire Regiment (Farncombe, Surrey).

82240 Corporal Leonard -Starling Daynes, Royal Engineers (Norwich).

65147 Corporal Oscar Pinti Giovanni Fiori, Royal Army Medical Corps (Newbury).

45588 Private Sydney Fone, Yeomanry (New Southgate, N.).

8905 Private James Fox, Shropshire Light Infantry (E. Barnet). .

315916 Private William MacLeod, Royal Highlanders (Lochinver, Sutherlandshire).

32746 Acting Corporal Jack Nicholls, Machine Gun Corps (Marlow).

54022 Private Ivan Edgar Phillips, Machine Gun Corps (Ipswich).

8301 Serjeant Albert Victor Ratcliffe, Suffolk Regiment (Ipswich).

7906 Lance-Cbrporal Ellis Slack, Manchester Regiment (LongsigEB, Manchester).

T/1156 Armament Staff Serjeant Herbert Sladdin, Army Ordnance Corps (Hull).

76044 Serjeant Frank Tarrey, Yeomanry (Derby).

32726 Acting Serjeant Donald Alexander Urquhart, Machine Gun Corps (Inverness).

50417 Corporal (acting Serjeant) Percy William Wilsden, Royal Field Artillery


#13 HarryBettsMCDCM

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Posted 19 January 2010 - 09:41 PM

QUOTE
Please clarify your question?



QUOTE (ForeignGong @ Jan 19 2010, 12:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Do you have his whole group or just the cross??



I think FG is asking if you have his complete group of Medals for WW1 Service,with the Karageorge or just that Order on its own ??

hypocrite.gif

#14 ForeignGong

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Posted 20 January 2010 - 12:13 PM

QUOTE (HarryBettsMCDCM @ Jan 19 2010, 10:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I think FG is asking if you have his complete group of Medals for WW1 Service,with the Karageorge or just that Order on its own ??

hypocrite.gif


Hi
HarryBettsMCDCM is correct I was just asking if you were lucky enough to have all the medals or just the Karageorge

Peter

#15 SGTJOHN

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 08:49 PM

QUOTE (ForeignGong @ Jan 20 2010, 07:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi
HarryBettsMCDCM is correct I was just asking if you were lucky enough to have all the medals or just the Karageorge

Peter


#16 SGTJOHN

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Posted 24 January 2010 - 08:56 PM

Hello Peter

Sorry, I misunderstood. I do have all my father's campagne medals which includes the Gold Cross of Kara George with Swords. I'm still trying to discover what he did to earn such an award. Have you any ideas? Thanks for the full list of recipients. Am I right in thinking that he was attached to the Oxfordshire & Buckingshire Light Infantry? One thing seems to be clear now that he was in the Royal Field Artillery and not the Royal Horse Artillery. Would I be correct in thinking that he was in the E.Dulwich Battery??

John

#17 Steve Mattock

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Posted 29 January 2010 - 03:39 PM

Hi John

The E. Dulwich, S.E. shown on the London Gazette entry is his place of enlistment.

I found two medal index cards on the Ancestry website, the first shows he served in the RFA, first as a gunner then as a sergeant. His first theatre of war was France entered on 17 January 1915. He is shown as entitled to the 1914-15 Star, British War and Victory medals.

The second shows his unit as B/115 Bde: RFA, but has no medal details but does have Salonica as first theatre of war served in. It also states that his name is on the nominal roll of individuals entitled to the emblem, 11 March 1920. Im afraid that I dont know what this means.

I hope that this is of interest.

Steve

#18 ForeignGong

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 09:25 AM

QUOTE (Steve Mattock @ Jan 29 2010, 04:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi John

The E. Dulwich, S.E. shown on the London Gazette entry is his place of enlistment.

I found two medal index cards on the Ancestry website, the first shows he served in the RFA, first as a gunner then as a sergeant. His first theatre of war was France entered on 17 January 1915. He is shown as entitled to the 1914-15 Star, British War and Victory medals.

The second shows his unit as B/115 Bde: RFA, but has no medal details but does have Salonica as first theatre of war served in. It also states that his name is on the nominal roll of individuals entitled to the emblem, 11 March 1920. Im afraid that I dont know what this means.

I hope that this is of interest.

Steve


Hi Steve
He was Mentioned in Despatches for Salonika


http://www.london-ga...pplements/12480


Peter

#19 Steve Mattock

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Posted 30 January 2010 - 11:44 PM

Thanks Peter, I should have thought of that as the explanation.

Steve

#20 SGTJOHN

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:18 PM

QUOTE (Steve Mattock @ Jan 29 2010, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi John

The E. Dulwich, S.E. shown on the London Gazette entry is his place of enlistment.

I found two medal index cards on the Ancestry website, the first shows he served in the RFA, first as a gunner then as a sergeant. His first theatre of war was France entered on 17 January 1915. He is shown as entitled to the 1914-15 Star, British War and Victory medals.

The second shows his unit as B/115 Bde: RFA, but has no medal details but does have Salonica as first theatre of war served in. It also states that his name is on the nominal roll of individuals entitled to the emblem, 11 March 1920. Im afraid that I dont know what this means.

I hope that this is of interest.

Steve


#21 SGTJOHN

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Posted 04 February 2010 - 10:38 PM

Hi Steve

Many thanks for your info. My father made no mention of being in France, so this was a surprise to me. I am still trying to discover why he was awarded this medal and so far have reached a brick wall. Have you any ideas as to where this info would be documentated? At one time I emailed the King of Serbia, who was at the time living in excile in London & was informed by return email that this request had been forwarded on but so far I have received no reply.

Regards
John

#22 Peter Wells

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 06:30 AM

Hello All

Newby here so am starting with a request for an explanation re. the Kara George before I start a new thread so as not to hijack this one.

I note mention of "Gold Cross of Kara George" - how does that tie in with the various classes (1 to 4) that I have seen mentioned elsewhere?

TIA

Peter

#23 ForeignGong

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 01:58 AM

Hi Peter
The Order of Karageorge comes in the following

The "Order of the Star of Karageorge with Swords" was an enamelled award for Officers in the following Classes

Grand Cross Badge with Swords (1st Class)
Grand Cross Star with Swords (1st Class)
Grand Officers Badge with Swords (2nd Class)
Grand Officers Star with Swords (2nd Class)
Commander's Badge with Swords (3rd Class)
Officer's Badge with Swords (4th Class)

No's awarded

1st Cl total 4
2nd Cl total 5
3rd Cl total 11
4th Cl total 39

The "Soldier's Order of the Star of Karageorge with Swords" was an unenamelled award as the name applies for Other Ranks.

Gold Cross (1st Class) approx 78 awarded
Silver Cross (2nd Class) approx 87 awarded


Peter

#24 Peter Wells

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 06:21 AM

Hi Peter
The Order of Karageorge comes in the following

The "Order of the Star of Karageorge with Swords" was an enamelled award for Officers in the following Classes

Grand Cross Badge with Swords (1st Class)
Grand Cross Star with Swords (1st Class)
Grand Officers Badge with Swords (2nd Class)
Grand Officers Star with Swords (2nd Class)
Commander's Badge with Swords (3rd Class)
Officer's Badge with Swords (4th Class)

No's awarded

1st Cl total 4
2nd Cl total 5
3rd Cl total 11
4th Cl total 39

The "Soldier's Order of the Star of Karageorge with Swords" was an unenamelled award as the name applies for Other Ranks.

Gold Cross (1st Class) approx 78 awarded
Silver Cross (2nd Class) approx 87 awarded


Peter


Thanks Peter

A further clarification if I may.

My paternal Grandfather, no. 563 CSM Frank Wlliam Wells, serving with the 1st SA Bde, was awarded the 'Cross of KaraGeorge 1st Class with Swords" on 191-12-23 (gazetted 1917-02-15) according to his service records. From my youth I remember it as an enamelled cross with silver swords with a small crown suspendor with a triangular scarlet ribbon.

Which one of the above would that be?

ps. I have not been able to find the Gazette entry.

#25 ForeignGong

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Posted 18 January 2011 - 07:16 AM

Hi Peter

here is the LG for Frank Wlliam Wells

http://www.london-ga...upplements/1609

Ths is the OR's Gold or 1st Class.

http://www.emedals.c...g.asp?item=S342

This is the Officers 4th Class

http://www.emedals.c...g.asp?item=S344
Peter