14 replies to this topic

[alf mcm]

I hope someone on the Forum can help me with this.
   I was looking at some Scottish birth certificates for Blackburn in West Lothian. I noticed one for Alexandre TUPOCUNKIS, who was born in 1917. His parents were Vincis TUPOCUNKIS and Agota RAUVERNAYOZUTE, and they were married in West Calder, County of Edinburgh, in 1904. The most interesting thing about the birth certificate was that it said the father was 'away fighting with the Russian Army'. He worked as a coal miner, and my question is this:-
    Just how did he get to Russia? Coal miners are not well paid. Was there a Government scheme {British or Russian} to help him get to Russia? Did Russia actively look for volunteers {or conscripts} in Scotland? Would he have travelled by land or sea?
  Vincis was not the only Russian soldier from Blackburn. I came across a Pole {I presume he was since his child's birth certificate said he was married in Poland}. I couldn't make out his name, but it seemed to end in 'ski'. He too was 'away fighting with the Russian Army'.

   I would appreciate any information on this interesting subject.

Regards,

Alf McM

[KevinBattle]

I'm no expert, but I don't think Poland was a sovereign State until AFTER WW1, formally established at the Treaty of Versailles. In fact I think the Germans may have started reviving Poland as part of territories annexed from Russia. Verailles just established what had been a German inspired revival - so which side was he on?

To answer the main point of your question, I think Scotland figured as one stop on the emigration route to Canada and America from East Europe and Russian ports, but don't quote me!! Obviously it sounds as if these two had stopped, presumably to build up funds for passage across the Atlantic and then decided to return.

[Grantowi]

Could he have been in the British Army, maybe acting as an interpiter (you know what I meam) and the wife decided to stick Russian instead of British on the lads certificate, or a language problem if her English / Scotish was a bit sparse.

Grant

[centurion]

He wouldn't have had to go to Russia to fight with the Russian army as there were Russian units in France and the Balkans. If your man spoke Russian but was a British national he could well have be conscripted in Britain and then posted as an interpreter/liaison man,  as suggested elsewhere, in the Balkans (Salonika) or France..

Re Poland there were Polish units fighting with almost everybody's army at one point - it being expedient for many governments to promise Polish independence "after the war is won - if we win it" Polish independence was declared by Poles in 1918 and fighting broke out between the Poles and the Germans, the Russians, the Ukranians, the Baltic States and just about anyone who was either occupying a piece of what had been Poland in the 18th Century or who wanted to claim a part or all of Poland. Independence was recognized by Versailles not proclaimed. This didn't stop the fighting which went on in various forms for a year or so and indeed there were tensions right through the interwar period. Poland actually invaded and annexed part of Czechoslovakia in 1939 (and of course was in turn invaded by Germany and the Soviet Union later that year).

[alf mcm]

Thanks for your replies.
   It could be that both these men were from the Polish part of Russia. I don't think they were British nationals, otherwise they would have joined the British Army. The second man mentioned stated on his child's birth certificate that he was married in Poland in 1911. He obviously thought of himself as being Polish even though his country was not technically independant.
   I would assume that Poles/Russians from other parts of Britain would have served with the Russian Army, but the question remains as to how they got to Russia. Alternatively, how would they know that there were Russian units in, say, France? Would there perhaps be some kind of Russian Legion {for want of a better word} formed in Britain, so that they could travel to Russia {or wherever they were required} as a unit?

Regards,

Alf McM

[centurion]

From the information provided there is nothing to say that that Vincis was not in the British Army. This would mean that he could easily remit money for his pregnant wife's upkeep. Fighting with the Russian Army does not preclude doing so as a member of the British Army. I've come across a guy described as fighting with the Italian Army who was part of a British Army liaison section. AFAIK the Russian units on the WF and Salonika were originally formed in Russia. I would imagine that fluent speakers of Russian and English were in relatively short supply (French tended to be more common as a second language in Russia).

[alf mcm]

Thanks Centurion,
    It sounds reasonable that he served in the British Army, attached to the Russians. However, should he not then have a medal record card, or even a service record? A quick search on Ancestry doesn't show anything, even allowing for changes in spelling of his name.
   Another possibility, considering that French is more likely as a second language is that he served with a French Unit, attached to the Russians. However, I would think that a multi-lingual coal miner would be quite rare!

Regards,

Alf McM

[Broznitsky]

Russian reservists in any country were expected to return to Russia to join the Tsar's armies.

As many reservists in Canada made their way back to Russia in 1914-15, I am sure many more "Russians" (men with Russian passports, Poles and Lithuanians included) in Britain would have answered the call.  After all, it would have been easier and less costly to get to Russia than what faced their cousins in Canada.

Later on, the Anglo-Russian convention on conscription would have seen Russian-born men join British forces.

I think the likeliest explanation is that these Russians that Alf found went back to serve in the Russian army.  TUPOCUNKIS is a Lithuanian name.  There were sizable Russian and Lithuanian communites in Scotland, working in the mines.  There is another thread on the forum about this.

[marcat2229]

Thanks Centurion,
It sounds reasonable that he served in the British Army, attached to the Russians. However, should he not then have a medal record card, or even a service record? A quick search on Ancestry doesn't show anything, even allowing for changes in spelling of his name.
Another possibility, considering that French is more likely as a second language is that he served with a French Unit, attached to the Russians. However, I would think that a multi-lingual coal miner would be quite rare!

Regards,

Alf McM

Hi
I have been trying to find out about my Grandfather who served with the Royal Engineers, possibly in the British North Russia Expeditionary Force. There is information posted  elsewhere in this "section" of the forum about this force. I have certainly read that Russian speakers were used as interpreters,  and for example members of the 236 brigade left Dundee for Russia on the 17-10-1918. In searching for my Grandfather I was looking at some casualty lists from the 82 Casualty clearing station in Bakkarlia (sp) North Russia, at the National Archives, and the casualities mentioned were truly international. As well as British, there were French, Czech,Polish, Americans, Russians, "Bolesheviks" and "Partisans".  Lots of the Russian names were "anglicized" with "off" as the ending rather than "ov", so perhaps your soldier had his named anglicized in some way. His surname seems more Lithuanianish than Russian, but of course at that time Lithuania  also did not exist as a separate state. I am not sure if this is any help but it would certainly seem that it was possible that Vincis and the Polish soldier may have been sent with this force as Russian speakers. The Polish soldier would no doubt understand a lot of Russian and if he was originally from the Russian part of Partioned Poland would most probably speak it as well.  Don't forget that lots of the service records don't exist, having been burnt in the blitz, hence my so far fruitless search for my Grandfather.
Regards.

[Broznitsky]

See my five-year old thread about such men:  http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p;hl=kosakoskie

[alf mcm]

Thanks very much for your replies, Broznitsky and marcat. I really appreciate your comments. Vincis and the Polish soldier were already serving in the Russian Army in 1917, so they could conceivably been in North Russia in 1918. Broznitsky, I tried your link, and it makes very interesting reading. I am now much better informed than I was before I started this post.

Regards,

Alf McM

[John Duncan]

Hi Alf

This lad is all probabilty Lithuanian or a 'Russian Pole' as they were known in the Lothians. About the turn of the century up to the outreak of WW1 thousands of Lithuanians arrived in Leith from Suwalki in Lithuania. They had been brought across to Scotland in empty coal ships which took coal from the Lothian Coal Company to the Baltic States and Hamburg, on the return journey they brought back their human cargo. They had been lied to in the main, having being told they would be taken to the United States.

On arrival at Leith they had 'hobsons choice' , homeless, jobless and stateless most took up the offer of a job and a house in one of the Lothian Coal Company Pits or one of the Lanarkshire pits. As a result in my home town of Newtongrange there were nearly 800 'Russian Poles' and thousands in Bellshill , Lanarkshire.

On the outbreak of war tehy had to register as aliens with the Police but as citizens of Russia they were classified as friendly, along with Ukranians and Latvians also in the village, a few Austrians were howevere interned at Edinburgh for a while.

From 1916 onwards a few of the men enlisted but in 1917 when Russia and Britain signed a treaty that allowed them to conscript men into their armies many of the men opted to return to Russia to serve, after the war some got caught up in the Lithuanian civil war and never returned.

The war memorial in Newtongrange bears the name of several of these men, the most recent Vasiliy Nikitenko MM (Ukranian) was  added a couple of years ago after a campaign started by myself. amongst the others who served were

Pte Stanislaw Skortolskis 243177 Royal Field Artillery, "Y" 50th T.M. Bty. Killed in action
Pte Anthony Wincauskas 30758 45009 King's Own Scottish Borderers, Highland Light Infantry
Pte K Gerlius 36635 Scottish Rifles, 8th Battalion
Pte Klemis Poliskis 36636 Scottish Rifles, 8th Battalion Killed in action
Pte Juozas Sanalitis (Campbell) 42426 32518 Scottish Rifles, 9th Battalion and KOSB Killed in action
Pte K Makvitics 42427 Scottish Rifles
Pte Kristoff Makswitajtis 42427 Scottish Rifles
Pte Justinas Eringis 462077 Labour Corps
Pte Justines Tutlis 48699 Royal Scots , 12th Battalion att 27th Trench Mortar Battery Killed in action
Pte Justinas Tutlis 48699 Royal Scots , 12th Battalion att 27th Trench Mortar Battery
Pte Jnoses Roukas 48788 Royal Scots
Pte Victoras Kirvaitis 48790 Royal Scots
Pte Dudonis Inozas 48792 Royal Scots
Pte Stanislow Cuicionis 48793 Royal Scots
Pte John Banza 48794 657748 70620 Royal Scots, Labour Corps
Pte John Nicol (ALIAS) 48795 600400 Royal Scots, Labour Corps
Pte Jan Mikolajunas 48795 600400 Royal Scots, Labour Corps
Pte Charles Rukas 48803 Royal Scots
Pte Justinskis Wladislowas 48804 Royal Scots
Pte Jucob Djemesok 48805 616531 Royal Scots, Labour Corps
Pte Andrew Balkawick 48806 Royal Scots
Pte Jurjas Baranckas 48807 657750 Royal Scots, Labour Corps
Pte Wincas Jakanskas 556227 Labour Corps
Pte Jonas Dugilas 556228 Labour Corps
Pte Simonavicus Kazysimirus 556229 Labour Corps see Simonas Kazamekaitis
Pte Simonas Kazamekaitis 556229 Labour Corps

You might have think a bit 'out the box' with the spelling of the men's names , most were illiterate in English and spelling varied wildy.

Hope this assists you can see a bit more on my website

John

Edit did he end up in Russia with 10th Royal Scots who were raised in Linlithgow. Cancel this last bit 10RS went to Russia 1918 to 1919

[Broznitsky]

The war memorial in Newtongrange bears the name of several of these men, the most recent Vasiliy Nikitenko MM (Ukranian) was  added a couple of years ago after a campaign started by myself.

Thanks John, for the list of men and for the reminder about the Niktenko campaign.

I know these "forgotten" men appreciate your efforts!

Peter in British Columbia

[alf mcm]

Thanks John, for your information. Your website is very interesting.

Broznitsky, these men will never really be 'forgotten' as long as we remember them.

Regards,

Alf McM

[paul lucas]

John Duncan is correct - Alexandre TUPOCUNKIS, was born of Lithuanian parents - Vincis TUPOCUNKIS and Agota RAUVERNAYOZUTE, Both surnames have been corrupted when recorded by the registrar. Vincis should be Vincas. Agota is correct. the -ute ending for Agota's name denotes she was an unmarried woman. It is difficult to work out what the original Lithuanian names were . maybe Tupciauskas.

Lithuania was not independent and the immigrants to Scotland were Russian citizens lving in a Polish-speaking area of what is now Lithuania - Suvalkija (Suwalki). The men were subjected to deportation due to the Anglo-Russian Military Convention of 1917.


Here is a precis of the events

the Lithuanians received the news of the signing, on July 16th, 1917, of the Anglo-Russian Military Convention. Under the terms of the Convention all Russian males resident in Britain between the ages of eighteen and forty-one years faced the choice of conscription into the British Army or deportation for military service in Russia. Opinions varied as to the best course of action to pursue. The Lithuanian priests advocated enlistment into the British Army while the socialists were recommending that those called up should elect to return to Russia. An added complication was the British government's decision not to make provision either for the transport of dependents or for their maintenance in Britain. The intention, it is clear, was to force as many Russians as possible into the British Army as this would avoid the logistical, administrative and political problems of arranging their return en masse to Russia.
In Scotland the majority decision of the Lithuanian conscripts was to return to Russia. In Lanarkshire, for example, of the 1,800 Lithuanians called up, 700 joined the British Army and 1,100 chose deportation to Russia. The decision was taken amid a storm of protest from within the community.

Little is known of the fate of most of the Lithuanian Conventionists for by the time they arrived in Russia the Provisional government had fallen and, as a result, they were scattered on their arrival to different parts of the country. Fewer than 350 of them are known to have returned to Scotland and these comprised individuals who could prove that they had fought on the Allied side in Russia' or in the Slavo-British Legion in North Russia in the Allied intervention campaigns. Those who had fought with the Bolsheviks or could offer no proof of Allied allegiance were refused permission to return. This meant, in effect, that their dependents in Scotland would become a permanent financial liability and it was on the basis of these financial considerations that officially the government decision was taken to discontinue the Treasury allowances from March 31st, 1920. By withdrawing the allowance repatriation was, in most cases, made compulsory. The consequence was that a total of about 600 Lithuanian women and children returned to Russian soil by the end of March 1920.