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1.inch Signal Flare


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#1 Bootnecks

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Posted 19 February 2010 - 09:58 PM

Does anyone have any information as to the packaging details for the 1.inch Signal Flare in use with the British Army for the WW1 period? I'm trying to find what the package was like, markings, how many flares to a package / box, labelling, colour and dimentions of the packaging.

Any information will be gratefully received.

Thank you in advance.

Seph

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#2 TonyE

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 10:27 AM

The normal way of packing SAA in WWI was in paper bundles, ten for rifle, six for revolver etc. However, as the signal pistol cartridges were cardboard, they may well have been packed in tins.
However, here is a paper bundle for the 1" signal pistol cartridges that you will not see very often!

Regards
TonyE



#3 Bootnecks

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Posted 20 February 2010 - 07:17 PM

Thanks TonyE.... I had no idea that the flare cartridges would have been cardboard, as that must have posed a problem during damp weather, especially during storage at the front. Do you have any leads that I could possibly look into!

Seph

#4 coemar

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 04:55 PM

QUOTE (Bootnecks @ Feb 20 2010, 08:17 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks TonyE.... I had no idea that the flare cartridges would have been cardboard, as that must have posed a problem during damp weather, especially during storage at the front. Do you have any leads that I could possibly look into!

Seph


Hello,

My grandfather was a small boy during first world war and was often among the soldiers that were on rest.
He lived in Poperinghe, just behind the Ypres front (so this was the restplace for the Commonwealth troops).
That way he had collected cartridges like this. Hereby a photo of a cardboard one.
The cardboard was quiet thick.

Regards,
Marc
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#5 Bootnecks

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:09 PM

Thanks Mark, great stuff.

That's actually the first cardboard Flare Cartridge I've seen, so I'll be lifting the image for my files.. if that's OK? Can you post a pic of the metal base please?

Seph

#6 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:22 PM

The red band marks it as a cartridge, signal, red, 1 inch.



#7 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:26 PM

The bases of the cartridges are quite a common find, here 2 x 1 inch and a 1.5inch

That being said I don't know what the difference is between these and stokes firing cartridges. these are marked Eley London V. The 1.5 inch is just Eley London.

#8 uncle bill

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:40 PM

another example, plus a Stokes cartridge







#9 uncle bill

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:43 PM





#10 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:44 PM

Thank you Uncle Bill long time no see.

#11 TonyE

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:48 PM

QUOTE (Bootnecks @ Feb 21 2010, 08:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks Mark, great stuff.

That's actually the first cardboard Flare Cartridge I've seen, so I'll be lifting the image for my files.. if that's OK? Can you post a pic of the metal base please?

Seph


I don't know when you were in Seph, but the alloy cased signal cartridges did not come into service until about the 1970s. In the sixties we were still using cardboard cased rounds. I will post pictures of the cartridges and tins tomorrow.

Regards
TonyE

#12 TonyE

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 08:51 PM

Mick - I was also about to post that the case heads with the "ELEY V" headstamps are the 1" Illuminating Mark V, and the Stokes propellant cartridge was a 12b, but Uncle Bill beat me to it!

Regards
TonyE

#13 Bootnecks

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Posted 21 February 2010 - 09:52 PM

QUOTE (TonyE @ Feb 21 2010, 12:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know when you were in Seph,
Regards
TonyE


October 1971 was my enlistment date TonyE cool.gif

This thread is becoming very interesting... thank you to all who have contributed so far.

Uncle Bill, can you possibley post a few more pics of the Stokes cartridge box.... with dimensions? You've actually pre-empted my next thread, as, due to having a working reproduction Stokes 3.inch Mortar, I want to get the ancilleries together for living history.

If anyone has any information on the container for the Signal Flare, with any dimensions and markings... I'd be very grateful.

Seph

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#14 Chris Henschke

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 03:22 AM

Seph,
As a reference, here is a series of images of images for a tin of 1941 vintage.
Dimensions ;
Height 104mm
Width 90mm

Very similar packaging to the tin used for 14 x .303 Ballistite cartridges, in both world wars, but of course larger.

An old Keens mustard tin is similar if you want to make up a repro.

Chris Henschke

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#15 Bootnecks

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 04:06 AM

Thank you Chris.

Due to your example being labelled for WW2, I'm a bit loath to use the same for the WW1 impression, unless I can verify as positive for use. I've found reference to a bulk package similar to the 1,000rd .303 box, so I'm chasing that one up. Also been informed of a small wooden flare box, possibly x50 content, but that lead is proving rather illusive at present.

I apreciate your imput, and it certainly will be considered... after a little more research.

All avenues are still open at the moment, so I'm hopeing that somewhere the much needed information will show itself.

Seph smile.gif

#16 auchonvillerssomme

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 06:35 AM

QUOTE (TonyE @ Feb 21 2010, 08:51 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mick - I was also about to post that the case heads with the "ELEY V" headstamps are the 1" Illuminating Mark V, and the Stokes propellant cartridge was a 12b, but Uncle Bill beat me to it!

Regards
TonyE


Yes just checked the Stokes round - the cartridge is 'Eley No12 GAS TIGHT'

Mick

#17 TonyE

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Posted 22 February 2010 - 04:37 PM

Seph - This does not help much with the packaging question, but I thought you might like to see these original 1917 Eley drawings I have of the various 1 inch signal cartridges.

The first one is for the Mark I and II aircraft signals. Mark I had a brass case and Mark II a paper case.

The second is for the Land service Mark V with paper case, although the Mark IV had a paper case.

The last one is interesting as it is not a flare, but a black streamer that is 66 inches long by 4.1 inches wide, used for daylight signalling.

Do you want me to post a picture of the WWI proof round from the packet I showed?

Regards
TonyE







#18 coemar

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 07:59 PM

QUOTE (Bootnecks @ Feb 21 2010, 09:09 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Thanks Mark, great stuff.

That's actually the first cardboard Flare Cartridge I've seen, so I'll be lifting the image for my files.. if that's OK? Can you post a pic of the metal base please?

Seph


Hi Seph,

No problem concerning your question to store it in your files. Sorry I could not answer earlier on your question but here the photos of the cupper you still asked.
I inserted 2 different ones.The NV one has a none coloured paperwork

Regards,
Marc
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#19 Radlad

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Posted 05 March 2010 - 11:21 PM

QUOTE (TonyE @ Feb 21 2010, 08:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I don't know when you were in Seph, but the alloy cased signal cartridges did not come into service until about the 1970s. In the sixties we were still using cardboard cased rounds. I will post pictures of the cartridges and tins tomorrow.

Regards
TonyE



Alloy cased very pistol cartridges were certainly in uk use in the early 1960's Tony, I seem to remember that they had a very thick rim (possibly 2.5mm) and had very deep serrations round about a third of the rims circumference, almost like gear teeth. They were supplied in tins of 3 at that time and it was a toss up whether paper or alloy cased flares were issued. Probably a stock level thing. As a teenager, I used to suppliment my spending money by collecting spent cartridges from our local military training area and weighing them in at the local scrap yard. Very pistol cases accumulated slowly but they were worth collecting. That would be 1965/1966

I have a couple of unmolested WW1 brass very pistol cases around somewhere but I must admit to being a philistine and drilling the primers out of many to fit American shotgun primers so the cases could be used in old wildfowling guns. That was in the days when surplus shells like that were still obtainable and sold by firms such as Longstaffs



#20 TonyE

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Posted 07 March 2010 - 02:12 PM

QUOTE (Radlad @ Mar 5 2010, 11:21 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Alloy cased very pistol cartridges were certainly in uk use in the early 1960's Tony, I seem to remember that they had a very thick rim (possibly 2.5mm) and had very deep serrations round about a third of the rims circumference, almost like gear teeth. They were supplied in tins of 3 at that time and it was a toss up whether paper or alloy cased flares were issued. Probably a stock level thing. As a teenager, I used to suppliment my spending money by collecting spent cartridges from our local military training area and weighing them in at the local scrap yard. Very pistol cases accumulated slowly but they were worth collecting. That would be 1965/1966

I have a couple of unmolested WW1 brass very pistol cases around somewhere but I must admit to being a philistine and drilling the primers out of many to fit American shotgun primers so the cases could be used in old wildfowling guns. That was in the days when surplus shells like that were still obtainable and sold by firms such as Longstaffs


I am sure you are right. I should have been more precise, as I was talking about the 1961-62 time frame when I said we were using carboard cased rounds.

The alloy cased rims do indeed appear thick, but they must be the same as the brass based ones to ensure interchangeability.

Regards
TonyE