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#76 Bob G

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Posted 02 April 2010 - 10:53 PM

I have just finished a wondeful book, The Tank in Action by Capt D G Browne MC. 1920.
On page 440, writing about late sumer 1918;  "I never met the South Africans, whom many people declare to have
been the best of the Colonial troops; but of the others, speaking from my own experience and on general grounds, I should
put the New Zealand Division first and the Canadian a close second. The Australians, gifted with the one essential military
quality fighting---were in many other respects an unmitigated nuisance"
Bob


#77 spidge

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 08:48 AM

QUOTE
name='Bob G' date='Apr 3 2010, 09:53 AM' post='1386936']
I have just finished a wondeful book, The Tank in Action by Capt D G Browne MC. 1920.


QUOTE
The Australians, gifted with the one essential military
quality -  fighting---were in many other respects an unmitigated nuisance"



Hi BobG,

Captain Browne was certainly entitled to his opinion.  I look forward to seeing the reasons why he had such open contempt for them and how he supported this statement.

Cheers

Geoff


#78 PJA

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 09:13 AM

To be fair, Geoff, he does allow that they were good fighters, which is the pre-eminent quality required for combat....so it's not totally contemptuous as a statement.  

Phil

#79 spidge

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 10:01 AM

QUOTE (PJA @ Apr 3 2010, 08:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
To be fair, Geoff, he does allow that they were good fighters, which is the pre-eminent quality required for combat....so it's not totally contemptuous as a statement.  

Phil


Hi Phil,

On reflection it was badly worded even though it was evident by the statement he was not condemning their fighting ability.

Maybe it should have been something like this:


QUOTE
I look forward to seeing the reasons why he had such contempt for them "apart from their fighting ability" and how he supported this statement.


Cheers

Geoff

#80 stevebecker

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 10:17 AM

Apple,

Mate, Sorry if I touched on some thing here but I don't like having these movies used as fact to prove a case or not.

I notice on rereading your coment you rightly say that also.

One thing lately I've been pushing when people use the "Gallipoli" movie as fact is to point out the statement used in the movie "that the British were sitting on the beach drinking tea" was in fact the reason for the charge by the 3rd LH Bde at the Nek was to suport the NZ Bde at Chunuk bair not the British landing at Suvla.

Even Birdwood wasn't told about the British landing untill after he draw up his plans for the August Battles.

But all this is wondering away from the premis of the original question and planly in aussie records there is little adverse coment on the British soldier, only on Higher Command.

But then again British soldiers also complain about their own higher command so if the British were lead by Donkeys instead of Lions then that was well known to aussies as well as the British soldier.

But we should not forget that aussie units also had their own Donkeys who wasted their own men as good as any British General.

S.B



#81 PJA

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 11:08 AM

QUOTE (stevebecker @ Apr 3 2010, 11:17 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Apple,

Mate, Sorry if I touched on some thing here but I don't like having these movies used as fact to prove a case or not.



Nobody in his right mind would advocate relying on the movie "Gallipoli" as a factual depiction of the events of August 1915.

What the film does show, however, is how the event was perceived from the standpoint of the early 1980s....and that is what I'm driving at here : it's not the truth of the matter, but what people choose to think was the truth, that counts for so much in this Australian folklore of the Great War.

Editing here : there is a sense of outrage in Australian depiction of the Great War - and I do allude here to modern accounts - which is not matched in New Zealand, Canadian or South African stories.....why is this ?

Phil

#82 stevebecker

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Posted 03 April 2010 - 10:15 PM

Mate,

Yes I wouldn't disagree with your reply.

To equat a movie made in the later half of the century as proof is in fact no proof.

But your right this has now become fact to the comon folk who don't know the difference but what I hate is some others who now justify this when they meet some dumb aussie who says "that only aussie troops were at Anzac" that some how all aussies are stupid.

There are dumb ones who don't know any better but there are many more who do.

Of cause having these movies out there dosn't help when they are used as fact. But I am yet to see a perfect historical movie.

But you mention outrage in what context do you mean?

IF you mean against the officer establishment then it came from post war and later years when they were seen to have wasted a generation not only of our boys but of their own.

Its a cheape trick to include a British General sending our boys to their deaths, like the Gallipoli movie (even if he was an aussie) or the judges in the Morant case or the British officers class in the TV show "Anzacs".

But its one we all know and can understand even if not completly fair on the officer class.

Cheers

S.B

#83 PJA

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 08:55 AM

QUOTE (stevebecker @ Apr 3 2010, 11:15 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
But you mention outrage in what context do you mean?

S.B


The mantra that Aussie losses were uniquely high - in proportionate terms - and that this carries with it
the inferrence that they were improperly exploited.

Phil

#84 DavidB

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 09:13 PM

It seems to me that every reference you look at about casualties gives a different figure so we end up arguing about it for ever more. Lets just
say that all the countries involved in the GW had horrendous losses. In terms of percentage against population at the time Austria-Hungary seems
to be the one who suffered the most with 16 percent of her population dying. Commonwealth countries seemed to vary from about .9 percent to
2.2 percent.
Incidentally a book that I read recently gives the reasons why young men joined the army to fight - these were
A bit curious and thought I would give it a go.
Had enough of the missus.
Always wanted to be in something more than just earning a living.
A desire to test myself out to which was added a little patriotism.
A trip overseas.
Conscripted by my conscience.
I thought it was my duty.
I read war books etc.
I don't know.
I can only mention later experience but us Aussies (sailors) never seemed to hate anyone, got on rather well with all.  

David

#85 PJA

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 10:37 PM

QUOTE (rgartillery @ Apr 4 2010, 10:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In terms of percentage against population at the time Austria-Hungary seems
to be the one who suffered the most with 16 percent of her population dying. David


Forgive me for being a "smart ****", David, but the population of Austro-Hungary was about 50 million in 1914 : no one has, to my knowledge, ever suggested that 16 per cent of them - about 8 million people - died in the Great War.  Now if we confine the assessment to military personel who were involved, then the proportion of 16% is plausible : of eight million Austro-Hungarians who donned uniform, somewhere between a million and a quarter and a million and a half of them died, which does indeed indicate 16%, more or less.  French and German losses were of roughly the same proportionate magnitude. Australia lost 14.5% of all the troops that she sent overseas. I reckon you've confused total population figures with military personel....but I concede that you're right to steer us away from a futile statistical argument.

Australian losses were appalling.  So were those of New Zealand : I believe that  thirty per cent of all the Kiwis deployed at Gallipoli were killed - very nearly double the death rate of the Australians there.

Phil

#86 DavidB

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Posted 04 April 2010 - 10:59 PM

PJA,
      Sorry about that, was taking the figures from a record page on Wiki and may have crossed over from one to the other oncorrectly. The point I was trying to get across
was that in every piece of material you read about the GW casualties there are different figures, most seem to agree that an accurate figure will never be known.
I think in all cases the losses were appalling, sometimes I wonder how the war dragged out for so long without people saying enough is enough. Luckily most of my immediate
relatives (All UK except for one Aussie) made it back home.
David

#87 Blackblue

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 12:38 AM

I read a reference on the weekend (History of the 37th Battlion by McNicol) that gives the number of British born AIF enlistments across the AIF....it works out to between 19 and 20%. I will post exact figures later when I have the book handy.  

Rgds

Tim

#88 Craig P. Deayton

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 03:57 AM

QUOTE (apple @ Apr 1 2010, 12:32 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
QUOTE (PJA @ Mar 23 2010, 02:23 PM) This   is a phenomenon more apparent - and here I'm venturing a suggestion   rather than stating a certainty - in the last generation than it was in   the Great War itself.  Mel Gibson syndrome has a lot to do with it.  I   have actually heard Aussie youngsters express the view that Australia   was left alone to fight at Gallipoli.  There is also a mantra which   states that Australia had the highest military death rate per capita of   any belligerent in the war - a preposterous assertion, as a quick glance   at Franco-German  statistics will prove.  In fact, the UK had a higher   per capita mortality rate than Australia, as did New Zealand.  It is   true that the overall Australian casualty rate, assessed against the   number who actually "took the field", was extremely high....but this   does not justify the statistical sleight of hand given by commentators   as renowned as Hugh Thomas.  In a sense, this anti English Australian   bias is a reflection of the Lions led by Donkeys school of thought that   developed over here in the sixties and seventies.  The British Empire   was reviled, and the perception of Diggers being callously exploited by   English "toffs" sat well with the repudiation of Imperial tradition.    It's gratifying to note that recent Australian military history has   refuted much of this.

Phil



While Phil and Craig both have good points, I disagree with some of their conclusions. The Mel Gibson Syndrome, is relevant to a discussion of modern Australian attitudes. But, I would hope that a more critical viewer of the film "Gallipoli" would realise that it' s primarily meant to be entertainment, not a historical document. But some people, including many Australians, are idiots and you can' t help their opinions. As an interesting side comment, I could add that the makers of "Gallipoli" answered criticism of making an Australian officer British by claiming that the accent used by the officer ordering the attack to continue was in fact an historically accurate "cultured Australian" accent, not a British one...

But leaving that aside, from an Australian perspective I think you could certainly find evidence of political concern as to the high casualty rates suffered by the Australians on the Western Front during the war itself. Prime Minister Hughes, who has already been discussed, was by 1918, if not earlier, making trouble. From another public perspective Keith Murdoch' s reporting of the war might be of interest to you.

I guess my basic point was that there is much (admittedly my examples are non military and perhaps not relevant for your research) historical evidence available during the Great War of problems with Australia' s relationship to Britain

Antony


Thanks for that Antony -  I take your point about the 'cultured' Australian accent and the fact that there is another (correct) interpretation available about the ordering of the charges at the Nek. You're absolutely correct to point out also that Weir was not making a documentary. In another sense as well, he was quite rightly tapping into an emergent Australian nationalism that very much featured something like 'adolescent rebellion' against the Imperial 'parent' and whilst most Australians held mainstream views about their rightful place as a junior member of the British Empire, some strained at the leash and this was ever more evident as the war progressed. Murdoch's letter probably represents this attitude most clearly. Exaggerated and quite wrong in places it may have been, it was also uncomfortably close to the mark in others. My understanding of Hughes was that he was a staunch supporter of the war and the Empire throughout though.

Craig

#89 PJA

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 08:31 AM

QUOTE (rgartillery @ Apr 4 2010, 11:59 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
PJA,
The point I was trying to get across
was that in every piece of material you read about the GW casualties there are different figures, most seem to agree that an accurate figure will never be known.
David



Yes, point taken, David.


What I do seek amongst the weltering array of conflictng statistics is a sense of "the general order of magnitude"....there is a certain sort of harmony between the losses of the principal belligerents - France and Germany, for example, each losing a similar proportion of their manpower.

This theme of emergent nationalism is pertinent when these statistcs are born in mind : I note that in recent years there has been much emphasis on the inordinately high casualties suffered by Scotland in the Great War :  Niall Ferguson - himself a scotsman - makes this very apparent in his controversial book The Pity of War, citing in his tabulations of mortality that Scotland lost an astonishing 26.4% killed as a ratio of men mobilised, compared with 16.8% for France, 15.4% for Germany and 14.5% for Australia. The figure for Britain and Ireland ( including what was to become Eire) is 11.8%.  So Scottish casualties were phenomenal : I wonder if there is "an axe to grind" with recent Scottish Nationalists here.

Phil

#90 PJA

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 09:13 AM

At this point I must confess that I've been implying that the Aussies were incensed by their experiences, while the Kiwis took their sufferings with a much greater equanimity. Now I must reconsider. I've just been browsing through Christpher Pugsley's Gallipoli, The New Zealand Story, and here is a passage that refutes my assumption:

"...The reinforcements were English - RMLI - and they let us down in a most disappointing way.  We have had reason now, on several occasions, to be bitterly disappointed in our brothers from England.  We ask ourselves,  " Where is the Army for which England for generations had such pride?" To France and mostly under the sod, and these volunteers from rural England, and from the huge mill towns are a dissappointment to us Colonials who have had the Army held up as an example and pattern incomparable."

Thus wrote a Kiwi soldier of the Canterbury Regiment, after a terrible attack in early May, 1915.

Incidentally, one of my pals lost his uncle in that stunt. He was a Londoner who emmigrated to New Zealand in 1912, and joined the very same Canterbury Regiment.  He was fatally wounded that month, perhaps in the same action, was evacuated and died from his wounds en route to Egypt, where he is buried in Alexandria.

Phil

#91 DavidB

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 09:30 AM

Phil,
       I am wondering whether we should look at the big picture here. I believe that in all armies beit British, Australian, Nz or who ever that you are going to find
personal comments as stated in post 90. It probably depends on where a particular unit was at any given time as to their thoughts whether they were supported
or not, and I think that in the heat of battle it would be a hard ask for anyone to think that he wasn't being supported or not.
As for Scottish troops, I have no answer maybe they were brav e to the point of foolishness, I don't know.
Incidentally I love your epitah.  biggrin.gif
David

#92 PJA

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 10:29 AM

QUOTE (rgartillery @ Apr 5 2010, 10:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Incidentally I love your epitah. biggrin.gif
David



Thank you, David.

Here's a question : the passage I cited from a New Zealander refers to "volunteers" from England.  This was May 1915 .........who, amongst British troops, were fighting as volunteers at that stage ?

I need some basic tuition as to when the first of the citizen volunteers from UK were actually deployed in the front lines.

Phil

#93 PJA

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 11:18 AM

QUOTE (PJA @ Mar 27 2010, 10:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
As someone who studies the casualty statistics of the war, I often refer to the ratio of combat deaths between officers and other ranks, and try and see if any pattern can be detected which indicates differences in social outlook.

For example, does an army, or regiment, which is conscious of representing a social elite in its make up and tradition, induce its officers to take more risks in an attempt to uphold "noblesse oblige" ?

Does a society that prides itself on having an egalitarian nature - and here I presume that this was more apparent in Australian culture than in the UK - expect officers to do justice to their appointment by leading more from the front ?

What I will try and do - and I invite anyone who has information pertinent to this to share it with us - is investigate the casualty figures of the Australians and see if there is any discernible difference between their Officer/OR ratio, and whether such differences might be explained in terms of "societal" values.

An edit : I've just been researching the Official Australian Medical History in order to answer this question, and while it contains much information about the total casualties, it does not - and I find this very significant - categorise the breakdown into officers and other ranks. The British Medical Statistics invariably breakdown casualties into these categories. Is this in itself sufficient to justify the view that Aussies were more egalitarian in outlook ?

Phil


This fixation of mine on these statistics will, I hope, be forgiven.  Disdained by many as inherently contradictory, confusing, or downright distasteful, I find the challenge very compelling - to seek underlying patterns in these casualty figures, or to see how they are used and abused by different historians and commentators, never forgetting the tragic human story that they represent.

In this regard Pugsley's book has provided me with the information that I seek : he shows tables that break down New Zealand casualties into officer and other rank categories, a feature that I was unable to find in the Australian compilations.

The results are striking enough to provoke a comment : at Gallipoli, the UK contingent lost one officer killed/died of wounds for every 17.8 men; for the New Zealanders the figures were one for every 22.2 men.  Now, it might be said that this does not represent a difference sufficiently large to justify any suggestion that a different "societal" outlook is apparent.  But I would contend otherwise.

Phil

#94 DavidB

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 11:49 AM

Phil,
      Have a look at this section of the official history by C E W Bean, it explains how the RMLI and other forces were raised.

http://www.awm.gov.au/cms_images/histories/2/chapters/23.pdf.

As far as I can make out the majority of Australian officers in the early part of the war were made up of reservists and men who had graduated as solicitors,
auditors and professional men. In the later part of the war officers were generally drawn from non commissioned ranks. This, I believe brought officers and
men much closer together.

David

#95 Blackblue

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 06:15 PM

AIF Embarkations: 331,781 UK Born: 64,221.

Enlistments - Troops Embarked - Total Casualties - KIA/Died/Missing

UK: 5,704,416 - 5,000,000 - 2,626,743 - 1,010,001
Canada: 628,964 - 411,834 - 210,151 - 60,425
Australia: 416,809 -330,000 - 226,073 - 59,285
NZ: 105,629 - 99,822 - 57,887 - 16,483
South Africa: 228,907 - 228,907 - 18,718 - 7.274




#96 PJA

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 07:57 PM

David,

That passage from Bean's history certainly brings home to us how Australians perceived British soldiers to be overwhelmed by the physical and pyschological ordeal of fighting at Gallipoli.  The tone is not disdainful, or contemptuous, but genuinely sympathetic : the troops are caricatured as puny and frightened boys out of their depth.  This is reiterated by stories of old New Zealand veterans then in their late eighties or nineties - who were interviewed by Maurice Shadbolt in 1982, and gave these accounts :

"A Lancashire battalion took over from us.  Little kids, they seemed, about sixteen.  And they were blubbering, crying their eyes out.  Terrified.  We tried to help them by saying those trenches were safe.  They weren't, of course.  We were just trying to soothe those kids.  That was a fairly disillusioning experience."  ( Russell Weir, Wellington Infantry Battalion )

"We were...relieved by a very amateur lot of young British territorials....They were just boys, most of them, seventeen or eighteen years old, and physically most unimpressive compared to the Australians and New Zealanders on the peninsula...These boys were hopelessly up against it.  They were bound to suffer pretty fair casualties.  I don't know what happened to them; that was the last we heard of that particular unit.  To this day I remain sorry for those poor young fellows."  ( john skinner, Otago Infantry Battalion)

" We were relieved after nightfall by some British soldiers, untrained troops I think they were, sheep without a shepherd.  They didn't know where they were, or what they were going into.  I felt terribly sorry for them."  ( Dan Curham, Wellington Infantry Battalion)

It's almost as if these hardened troops were more appalled at what happened to those frightened British boys than they were at what happened to themselves.

Phil



#97 Craig P. Deayton

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 09:08 PM

QUOTE (PJA @ Apr 5 2010, 09:13 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
At this point I must confess that I've been implying that the Aussies were incensed by their experiences, while the Kiwis took their sufferings with a much greater equanimity. Now I must reconsider. I've just been browsing through Christpher Pugsley's Gallipoli, The New Zealand Story, and here is a passage that refutes my assumption:

"...The reinforcements were English - RMLI - and they let us down in a most disappointing way.  We have had reason now, on several occasions, to be bitterly disappointed in our brothers from England.  We ask ourselves,  " Where is the Army for which England for generations had such pride?" To France and mostly under the sod, and these volunteers from rural England, and from the huge mill towns are a dissappointment to us Colonials who have had the Army held up as an example and pattern incomparable."

Thus wrote a Kiwi soldier of the Canterbury Regiment, after a terrible attack in early May, 1915.

Incidentally, one of my pals lost his uncle in that stunt. He was a Londoner who emmigrated to New Zealand in 1912, and joined the very same Canterbury Regiment.  He was fatally wounded that month, perhaps in the same action, was evacuated and died from his wounds en route to Egypt, where he is buried in Alexandria.

Phil


Thanks Phil

A fascinating insight - perhaps we need to look at what Australians and New Zealanders were taught about the British army. The English army was the model for the various militias as well as the small regular colonial forces, it is little wonder it was held up as the ideal. Reality might have inevitably disappointed. 'Under the sod' is a telling observation though.

A much appreciated quote


Craig

#98 green_acorn

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 09:38 PM

I haven't seen Blackadder mentioned yet for its derogatory attitude to colonials ;`)

I thought the Education notes at the link I posted covered the jingoism aspect quite well and ensured the students understood it was just entertainment, not history.

Cheers,
Hendo

#99 Craig P. Deayton

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Posted 05 April 2010 - 10:39 PM

QUOTE (green_acorn @ Apr 5 2010, 09:38 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I haven't seen Blackadder mentioned yet for its derogatory attitude to colonials ;`)

I thought the Education notes at the link I posted covered the jingoism aspect quite well and ensured the students understood it was just entertainment, not history.

Cheers,
Hendo


Hendo

Remind me of the Blackadder references to colonials?

Craig


#100 Craig P. Deayton

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Posted 06 April 2010 - 12:00 AM

QUOTE (PJA @ Mar 27 2010, 09:39 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Mike,

Your allusion to "officer gentry types" is intriguing.

As someone who studies the casualty statistics of the war, I often refer to the ratio of combat deaths between officers and other ranks, and try and see if any pattern can be detected which indicates differences in social outlook.

For example, does an army, or regiment, which is conscious of representing a social elite in its make up and tradition, induce its officers to take more risks in an attempt to uphold "noblesse oblige" ?
The Guards come to mind straight away, with the large proportion of Old Etonians that were commissioned.  Were officer casualties, vis-a vis those of other ranks, higher than they were in other regiments ?  I suspect that a distinctly aristocratic officer cadre knows how to rely on its NCO contingent...maybe a distinctly high casualty rate among NCOs is significant here.

Now I would ask if the reverse is true .

Does a society that prides itself on having an egalitarian nature  - and here I presume that this was more apparent in Australian culture than in the UK - expect officers to do justice to their appointment by leading more from the front ?

What I will try and do - and I invite anyone who has information pertinent  to this to share it with us - is investigate the casualty figures of the Australians and see if there is any discernible difference between their Officer/OR ratio, and whether such differences might be explained in terms of "societal" values.

An edit : I've just been researching the Official Australian Medical History in order to answer this question, and while it contains much information about the total casualties, it does not - and I find this very significant - categorise the breakdown into officers and other ranks.  The British Medical Statistics invariably breakdown casualties  into these categories.  Is this in itself sufficient to justify the view that Aussies were more egalitarian in outlook ?

Phil


Phil

I had not noticed that the Official Medical History made no distinction - thanks for pointing that out. Bean's history does give the figures for each major engagement broken down for officers and other ranks so presumably the figures in total exist in the casualty returns. I found an interesting quote from a private from the 47th Battalion before Messines that noted the officers making themselves very 'sociable' prior to the second phase attack:

'they need to when they will be side by side with the men when they are in action. Any officer who preserves a tyrannical attitude will be killed as soon as we are in the firing line. Men will not tolerate any nonsense and dispatch them without hesitation.'

The 47th's officer losses were very heavy on 7th of June, 1917 - 3 of 4 Company commanders killed and 3 companies losing all officers that day.

Craig