107 replies to this topic

[PETE1624]

Hi Bob,
          Just found this thread, what a great piece of history the album is. I was lucky enough to buy the 2 hand written diaries by Ida Maud Kenshole last year. Do you think " I.M.K "/ "Self" are the photograher ?? I have only just started going through the diaries and i am hoping the album and diaries tie in.
         Best regards
               Pete

[Bob_Cleary]

I was lucky enough to buy the 2 hand written diaries by Ida Maud Kenshole last year. Do you think " I.M.K "/ "Self" are the photograher ??

Hello Pete,

I would hope so but that is only speculation on my part. Maybe a little research will verify a match. I as of yet have not published all of the pictures. The remainder are tourist shots in Paris which do not include people or names but every little piece of the puzzle will be important in linking the diaries and the photos. I will keep you posted.

Bob

[PETE1624]

Hi Bob,
          A few pages into the diary she talks of going to Paris Plage, Le Jouquet, with a Miss Braithwaite. Any seaside pictures ?
       Best regards
            Pete

[Bob_Cleary]

Hi Bob,
A few pages into the diary she talks of going to Paris Plage, Le Jouquet, with a Miss Braithwaite. Any seaside pictures ?
Best regards
Pete

Hi Pete,

Sorry, the only beach photo appears to  be the one taken at Calais (don't recall the post number but it's there). Here is a link to the photos that I had mentioned. No people or names but still part of Self's experience.

Bob

http://www.toysoldierschat.com/showthread....28890#post28890

[Siege Gunner]

If the diaries and the photo album do tie together, this must surely be a strong contender for turning into a book  -  ideally with additional material and editorial input from Sue.

[PETE1624]

The diaries are very good. They put over a great personal story, Ida is a very descriptive and what she mentions does need to be published. I have read many diaries and this one is the best.
The hand writing is not easy to understand and takes time to work out, and so far it does not tie in with the photo album which is very sad, but the photos are later, but I.M.K has to be "my girl". The diaries start from oct 1915 to 1918. I will pick out  some interesting items but it is 2 books, and i would like advice on publishing, its not a money thing, i just think its a great item and needs to be read, p.richards2@blueyonder.co.uk.

[Bob_Cleary]

[quote name='PETE1624' date='Jun 29 2010, 04:02 PM' post='1433384']

... I.M.K has to be "my girl". The diaries start from oct 1915 to 1918. I will pick out some interesting items but it is 2 books, and i would like advice on publishing, its not a money thing, i just think its a great item and needs to be read, p.richards2@blueyonder.co.uk.
[/quote]

Pete,

I agree; you may use whatever you need from the photo album for this project. Unfortunately I have no experience in publishing.

Bob

[PETE1624]

Hi Bob,
         Thank you for your offer regarding photos. I have no experience regarding publishing either but the diaries are better than some books i have read. It will take time to put the diaries on computer, go from there. Speaking (email) to Sue, the diaries are earlier than the album and so different people are mentioned, but i think Miss Kenshole has to be the photographer. I am local ish to South Wales and have a friend who is digging in that area, will keep you posted.
   Best regards
      Pete

[frev]

Looking forward to seeing more photos (& perhaps someone turning up with the diary! )

Wow......the power of suggestion!!

So glad to see the possibility of photos & diaries coming together one day Bob & Pete
I'm totally convinced that I.M.K. is the photographer - apart from anything else - why else would she use only the initials of someone else!

Sending out heaps of 'positive waves' on this   - and looking forward to reading the completed book one day.
Cheers, Frev

[TEW]

Just a small pedantic point.
Has the image from the album (post 10) been printed the wrong way round ie mirror imaged. Or is Matron Ayre swapping sides for her Medal?? Compared to Ayre in post 21 with the same background. I was trying to see if those marked I.K., I.M.K., and Self are the same person and difficult if they get printed wrong. Still seems odd that someone uses 'Self' and their initials and places the caption name in the wrong place in relation to the image.
Thanks
TEW

[Bob_Cleary]

Just a small pedantic point.
Has the image from the album (post 10) been printed the wrong way round ie mirror imaged. Or is Matron Ayre swapping sides for her Medal??

Well, look at that; I did not catch this. I suspect that the negative was flipped the wrong way.

[Sue Light]

That photo is definitely printed the wrong way round - Miss Ayre's service badge would always be on the right lapel of her cape.  But the naming is correct, with Maria Bradburne, the trained nurse on our left.  However, there are some images where the naming doesn't follow the placement of those in the photo, for instance, 'Sr. Hughes, Sgt. Leake, Self' and 'Captain Wingfield, Wilson, Harper, I.M.K.'.    

I've looked for a long time at the photos, and have defintely reached the conclusion that I.M.K. and 'Self' are the same person, though not always appearing in line with the naming on the photos.  What hasn't been proved, although I feel sure it's correct, is that the owner of the album was Ida Maud Kenshole.  An enquiry to the British Red Cross Society Archives would hopefully sort that out, and there's a high chance that they have a service card for her, which should confirm that her dates of service and the units she served at.

Sue

[Sue Light]

I also wanted to mention that I don't think that this can be the only photo album that exists/existed.  The presence of one earlier image (Hardelot Woods 1916) shows that the owner had a camera available at that time, and it seems unlikely that there would have been nothing more from that period.  It could be that when she came to stick the photos in an album, possibly years later, there were two or three of them and having stuck in the earlier ones she suddenly found 'Hardelot Woods' and put it among the later images.  So an earlier album might well tie in with the diaries.
And conversely, I wonder if there are any later diaries?  

Sue

[Bob_Cleary]

And conversely, I wonder if there are any later diaries?

And how about analysis of her writing? She only printed in her photo diary and used script most of the time in her written diary but not always. Just something else to look at.

Bob

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[TEW]

Sue, thanks for the further information on Matron Ayre's medal position, I thought that non military service should not have medals on their left. Also I wasn't clear in what I said about the captions, the one I showed is correct just some of the others don't seem to correlate to the images as you pointed out. eg 'Captain Wingfield, Wilson, Harper, I.M.K'.

And while I'm on the subject of captions, there are two I've seen that seem to say St. or Sp. Wilson #60 and St. Hughes, Sgt. Leake Self. is the Sp St some sort of prefix rather than a name? I showed the St. Hughes to someone who read it as Saint Hughes!!

I really hope the diaries and photo album do go together and that IMK and Self are one and the same, there are many possibilities as to when the Album was captioned and compiled, ditto for the actual diaries, she may have re written them sometime later. I'm not sure of the time frame for the album but there is one 1920 image that seems to be stuck in the inside back cover?

Onto the handwriting, I know there are many handwriting experts out there and I'm not putting myself up as one but having downloaded the few pages available online and had a good look, I came to the conclusion based on the diary frontispiece that the writing is so different to the captions that they cannot be written by the same person. Look at the top half of the image below for comparative styles. The way IMK and Ida Maud Kenshole are written is very different. Ditto the superscript 18^th & 35^th, the G & H of General Hospital and the BEF.

However, looking again last night I saw something else which felt like an Eureka moment. Look at the lower half of my image and you'll see her unique ampersand which looks like a 'v' e.g. Cowman v pats,. Self v Watson. Then in one part of the dairy the same 'v' as an ampersand. The text reads;- 'and tucks in the forlorn young giant, who grunts contentedly v prepares to pass in the land of dreams' which I think is wonderful writing. I would love to read more. Perhaps the frontispiece was written by someone else?
Sadly, according to Ancestry Ida Kenshole died unmarried in 1975 leaving most of her estate to Charities (The Times).

TEW

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[Sue Light]

Hughes and Wilson may well have been saints, but that S.. squiggle really stands for 'Sister.'  
I also feel that the writing is very different, but the album does look to me like the writing of an older person, and I just wondered whether the album could have been captioned many years later.

Sue

[Bob_Cleary]

Sadly, according to Ancestry Ida Kenshole died unmarried in 1975 leaving most of her estate to Charities (The Times).

Let us not forget another important clue: the photo album was found in New Jersey 30 years ago. If Ida died in Britain in 1975, how did her album get to the United States (about) 5 years later?  

• With no children to inherit it then maybe it was purchased in an estate sale by a stranger? (also someone who did not value it much since I found it on the bottom of a box loaded with old books   )
• A niece or nephew who moved to the U.S. and sold it in a yard sale (hard to believe but I'm just going through possible scenarios. )
• Or Ida gave it away or sold it (hardly )

The trail to the U.S. may be too cold to follow but its final destination is another piece of the puzzle.

Bob

[TEW]

Sue & Bob,
Yes I did realise later that St. must be abbreviation for Sister, even though as you say they were all Saints!!! Looking at the images of the Diary I keep thinking it may have been written long after the war, possibly from notes and memory.

If there are two, foolscap, bound volumes is it not probable they were written up later. Would Ida have had the time and inclination to write such verses as 'and tucks in the forlorn young giant, who grunts contentedly v prepares to pass in the land of dreams' on a day to day basis, and as far as I can see did she write with consistent style for much of the diaries?

The Times did say she left £11,000 to 'Legatees' and as wills only cost a £5 to order it may be interesting to see who the Legatees were. Possibly, one of the Charities recieved her Album and felt it had no value.
TEW

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[frev]

..............................

Unfortunately the photo captions are printed (ie. letters not joined) in both upper & lower case, & the diary is written (ie. letters joined) – however, both scribes have a similarly neat hand.
Some of the captions in the album show that the writer has had a little calligraphy practice & the front page of the diary with name etc shows the same.
...........................................

Anyway, if the photo album belongs to Ida - a little more personal detail on her:

Ida Maud KENSHOLE – born 1890 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Monmouthshire, Wales
Daughter of James E. (Gasworks Manager) & Mary A. – living Methyr-Tydfil in 1901
WW1 VAD Nurse, 18th Gen Hosp
Died (unmarried) 1975 Worcester
[The Times 23/8/1975, Latest wills:  “Miss Ida Maud Kenshole, of Fernhill Heath, Worcestershire, left 86,751 pounds net (no duty shown).  She left 11,000 pounds to legatees and the residue among 10 charities.”]

Siblings:
1.Gladys born c1892
2. Edward Harold born 1893 – 2nd Lieut, Monmouthshire Regt att King’s Liverpool Regt – Lieut, Welsh Regt – living Mill Hallow, Bentley Heath, Knowle, Warwickshire – died 1966 Warwickshire (Solicitor, formerly of Birmingham)
3. William Trevor born 1896 – died 1969 Worcester

Did a little more digging on Ida's family - she outlived her siblings (Gladys only just)
And it appears that only Edward married.  It also appears that he only had one child.
Veronica Mary (Burrow) lost her husband when she was only 46, and may have travelled to the USA, with or without children???  No further records found for her after The Times entry for her father's death in 1966.

Details:

Ida Maud KENSHOLE – born 8 Sept 1890 Cardiff, Glamorgan, Monmouthshire, Wales
Daughter of James E. (Gasworks Manager) & Mary A. – living Methyr-Tydfil in 1901
Died Jun Qtr 1975 Worcester, England
[The Times 23/8/1975, Latest wills:  “Miss Ida Maud Kenshole, of Fernhill Heath, Worcestershire, left 86,751 pounds net (no duty shown).  She left 11,000 pounds to legatees and the residue among 10 charities.”]

Siblings:
1. Gladys born 27/3/1892 Cardiff, Wales – died Mar Qtr 1975 Worcester (Unmarried)

2. Edward Harold (Ted)
Born Sept Qtr 1893 – 2nd Lieut, Monmouthshire Regt att King’s Liverpool Regt – Lieut, Welsh Regt – living Mill Hallow, Bentley Heath, Knowle, Warwickshire

Married Dorothea V. JEFFERIES Dec Qtr 1922 Solihull, Warwickshire (she died Dec Qtr 1946 Birmingham)

Child: Veronica M b.Sep Qtr 1923 Solihull (no other children reg. to 1930)
Veronica M. married John C. N. BURROW Jun Qtr 1946 Meriden, Warwickshire
The Times, Thur Mar 21, 1946:
FORTHCOMING MARRIAGES
MR J.C.N. BURROW AND MISS V.M. KENSHOLE
The engagement is announced between John, younger son of Mr an Mrs. R.H. Burrow, of The Spinney, Dorridge, Warwickshire, and Veronica Mary, only daughter of Mr and Mrs E.H. Kenshole, of Oakleigh, Knowle, Warwickshire.
Veronica Mary BURROW & her husband John Clive Nigel BURROW (Civil Servant, b.c1918) returned to Liverpool 28/11/1946 on the SS Ethiopia from Nigeria (honeymoon?)
John Clive Nigel BURROW b. 19/5/1928 – d.Dec Qtr 1969 Warwick
Nothing further found for Veronica (no death notice for her husband in The Times)

Died 8th Mar 1966, Queen Elizabeth Hosp, Birmingham, Warwickshire (formerly of Birmingham, solicitor) – Cremated at Lodge Hill, Birmingham Fri 11th March.  (“Please, no mourning, no flowers” - Veronica)

3. William Trevor born 30 Apr 1896 Merthyr Tydfil, Wales – died Sept Qtr 1969 Worcester
(no marriage reg found)


Cheers, Frev

[poppy3]

Well done on all that research, frev.  

There's a simple reason for you not finding Veronica Burrow in the death index: she was still alive in 2009, in Oxfordshire.  This newspaper report describes her visit to Aberdare Hospital, because of its connection with the Kenshole family.

192.com seems to have a matching name and address, so perhaps it would be worth writing to Mrs Burrow about her aunt, Ida.

[Bob_Cleary]

Well done on all that research, frev.

Yes, a wonderful job. As for the New Jersey connection - IMHO (if this is Ida's photo album) in 1975 following her death Ida's estate was liquidated along with her personal library (including her photo album). Her books and album where part of a large lot of used books sent to the United States on a container ship where they were sold as part of a large lot at auction. From there the album changed hands from one used book dealer to another until it ended up at a dusty second hand market in New Jersey.

Not very romantic by I think a reasonably scenario.

Bob

[PETE1624]

Hi Bob,
         The diaries came to auction from the deceased estate of a Midlands based antiques dealer who shipped antique furniture to the USA, he lived in Redditch which is close to Worcester. The house was full to the brim with all types of antiques and rubbish, the auctioneer found and rescued the diaries by luck. After i bought the diaries i asked the auctioneer if there were any other related items, photo`s etc. I was told the house was in such a state alot of items were sent to the tip ??? Very sad to say amongst the items they found a box of 43 ww1 victory medals, all the silver war medals had been scrapped, only the ribbons left.
      Pete

[TEW]

Additional to Frev's research I have found that:-

Veronica Mary Burrow & John Clive Nigel Burrow had children;-
Timothy James K Burrow born 2^nd Q 20/4/49 1949 died 1974 Stratford-Upon-Avon
Sarah H L Burrow born 3^rd Q 1952 Married Mr Collins 1^st Q 1981 Warwick
I didn't find the Richard Burrow mentioned in the Walesonline link.

Sarah Collins had a child Sam Edward Collins 3^rd Q 1981 and maybe Holly Elizabeth Jan 1985.

If Veronica is listed in 192.com it would be interesting to see if she or a sibling recognises Ida. And Pete1624's explanation of Antique Dealers in Redditch makes a good connection with Ida's final location.

I also found from an odd source, http://www.meltingpot.org.uk/family/bradfo...0/g0000018.html

Anyone with full access to the 1911 census could check if Elsie and Charles are living with Parents James E b1866 and Mary A b1862, in Merthyr Tydfil. But this website refers to Ida's mother as Marion not Mary A. (Mary Ann??) Possibly these are cousins to Ida etc?

Edward John Kenshole born 3^rd Qtr 1901
Birth Registered in Cardiff (same as Ida, Gladys, Edward Harold)
BUT on 1911 Census appears to be in Tiverton, Devon where there is a strong Kenshole presence including an Ida Mary Kenshole. Not convinced about this one.

Elsie Kenshole born 10/6/1902, Birth Registered in Merthyr Tydfil, 1911 Census Living in Merthyr Tydfil. Married Mr Dalton (possibly Geoffry) 1933 in Merthyr Tydfil. Elsie Dalton died in Reading 1972

Charles Kenshole  born 1904 1st Q
Birth Registered  in Merthyr Tydfil, 1911 Census Living in Merthyr Tydfil, Married Mrs Jones 1940 Caerleon, Died 1972 Worcs
Possible offspring- Gilliam Kenshole b 1948 Pontypridd. Married Mr Grabham 1972, Pontypridd, had child Andrew Charles Grabham 1st Q 1977 Ogwr Wales. Andrew Charles Grabham may have Married a Mrs Williams 2003.

TEW

[headgardener]

Hi Bob,

I just PM'd you regarding Captain Wingfield who features in at least one of your photos;  I think I have some medals issued to him (assuming that he's Captain Samuel William Wingfield of the RAMC).

Nice work everyone.  Very impressive.

[Bob_Cleary]

Hi Neil,

I don't know if you are receiving my messages. I have a 2 meg scan of Wingfield. All I need is an email address to send it to.

Thanks,
Bob