134 replies to this topic

[hywyn]

Great posting Michael and a lovely insight into this cemetery and it's surrounds.

Regarding A W Jones Cpl 31841 1st 6th RWF in post 14. Albert William Jones, originally from Marshfield in Monmouthshire had previously served with the 10th Bn in France and was gassed in a German gas attack on the 30th April 1916. After some time in the UK he was posted to the 1st 6th, TF unit in the EEF in May 1917 but retained his Regular Army number.

May I please copy the photo (& the two RWF unknowns) attributed to you in any future use?

Hywyn

[michaeldr]

MC,
Thanks for that; your comments are much appreciated
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Mick,
Though I worked for some years in the printing industry, I would never have made a proof-reader, would I?
I missed 'calld' completely.
As you suggest this stone may have been carved locally and perhaps some time ago. The last time that I discussed this subject with their man on the spot, he told me that at that time, ready-carved stones were being imported from their workshops in, I think, France and Italy.
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Steven,
Thanks for your ideas on this.
I was wondering if there was a missing question mark here, as in "….He is safe, and we?"
It's a bit of a puzzle this one.


Michael

[michaeldr]

Hywyn,

Many thanks for those extra details which I have already added as an 'edit' beneath the photograph.
There is no problem with your using the pictures. I hope to get some more of your Welshmen the next time I'm down there. Like Corporal Jones, most appear to have fallen on the 6th November 1916 when the Turkish machine-guns took such a terrible toll, not to mention that awful friendly fire incident a little latter that same day.
Also it should be noted that many have inscriptions in their native tongue (Cymry?)

regards
Michael

[hywyn]

Thank you Michael.

It's Cymraeg and I'll have a bash at translating where I can on any you post.

Hywyn

edit
Cymru = Wales ,the country.

(Y) Cymry- (the) Welsh i.e the people.

Cymraeg = Welsh, the language (of Heaven!)

[ShirlD]

I always appreciate your 'special projects'.   I especially liked the contrast of the photos today and the original pictures.  Thank you Michael.
Cheers
Shirley

[michaeldr]

Many thanks Shirley
great to have your comments

regards
Michael

[judy7007]

Michael

Very, very many thanks for posting such for such wonderful photos.  This is a cemetery I very much want to go to and, after reading your post, I feel more determined than ever that I will get there one day.

Judy  

[Steven Broomfield]

And I must say I DO NOT like that white backing to the NZ headstone. Nasty.

[green_acorn]

Michael,

Thank you so much for posting these images, as a person who may never get to that part of the world it is greatly appreciated.

Cheers,
Hendo

[michaeldr]

This is a cemetery I very much want to go to and, after reading your post, I feel more determined than ever that I will get there one day

Judy,

If you can get as far as Tel Aviv, then the coach or rail journey from there is only about an hour-and-a-half. You could go there and back from TLV in a day (Sunday-Thursday, but not Friday or Saturday). A return rail ticket is currently less than ₤10 for air-conditioned, double-glazed, comfort. (Some trains are even double-deckers.) Once in Beersheva then it's a 15 or 20 minute walk to the cemetery. The Turkish memorial is also very close by, but to include the new ALH monument then I think you will need either a taxi or a licensed tourist guide with a car. The latter should always be arranged in advance and will not be cheap, but they may also be able to drive you to various spots on the battlefield.
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Steven,

I have not yet made my mind up on the white NZ cross, but what I can say is that it really stands out. As the same, or a similar technique is also being used on regimental badges (see the RWK example) is this the way of the future?
I am hoping that one of you chaps in Europe can clarify this for me.

regards
Michael

[michaeldr]

Hendo,

Glad to have been of help here
and still hoping to see you sometime

regards
Michael

[judy7007]

[quote name='michaeldr' date='Jun 13 2010, 02:48 PM' post='1424287']
The Turkish memorial is also very close by, but to include the new ALH monument then I think you will need either a taxi or a licensed tourist guide with a car. The latter should always be arranged in advance and will not be cheap, but they may also be able to drive you to various spots on the battlefield./quote]

Michael, thank you for the details (also for the info not in the quote), notes taken.  The new ALH monument is a must for me and is one of those things I will gladly pay for.

By 'arranged in advance' do you mean before leaving (in my case) UK?  Or can I arrange that when I get there?  On reflection, probably a taxi would be ok, rather than a licensed guide - any tips re likely hassles?

many thanks
Judy

[LST_164]

Michael,
some excellent shots there, and intriguing headstones.

I can't enlarge the image, but is one of the two RWF "Unknowns" regimentally spelt "Welsh" and the other "Welch"?  This can be seen in various places, and seems to have no rhyme or reason to it, but not often side-by-side.  Must have been produced at different times / by different workshops.  Officially the regiment was "Welsh" during the Great War, changing to "Welch" in the early 1920s.  

The errors made in commissioning the epitaphs are likewise not unusual.  Sometimes due to the stonemason : at others to a clerk's misreading of the manuscript words submitted by the next of kin.  You may find the proportion of oddities increases when dealing with non-English epitaphs (Welsh ones are more prone to being misspelt)!

Thank you for sharing them with us.  

LST_164

[Pighills]

What wonderful photos, and they all tell a story.

Thanks for posting them.

I agree with Steven re: the below quote.

I wonder if it's a bit poetic?  "In Jesu's keeping he is safe and so are we" makes more sense, but is a bit prosaic. (And wordy at whatever it was a letter).

[michaeldr]

By 'arranged in advance' do you mean before leaving (in my case) UK? Or can I arrange that when I get there? On reflection, probably a taxi would be ok, rather than a licensed guide - any tips re likely hassles?

Judy,

If you are content to go from point to point and look around for yourself, then a taxi should be perfectly adequate. All taxi drivers should have enough of a command of English to understand where you want to go.  The benefit of arranging a licensed tour guide in advance through your travel agent, is that you can specify that you require not only someone with fluent English, but also a guide who knows about WWI and the battles around Beersheva in particular. A good guide will provide lots of background information and will be able to point out things while you travel and not just at the site which you wish to visit. It is certainly worth getting a travel agent to quote you for this, and when you known the price, then you can see if it fits in with your budget.

Good luck
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LST_164

Got it in one; yes, each headstone has a different spelling.
Thanks for your comments re the epitaphs and glad you found them interesting
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Kim,

Thanks for that. Re-reading Steven's interpretation it is making more sense now.


regards
Michael

[Steven Broomfield]

Steven,

I have not yet made my mind up on the white NZ cross,...  is this the way of the future?

regards
Michael

I really hope not.

[ceebee]

Michael

Just caught up with this excellent post. Thanks for sharing the pictures and other details.

I recall Tibby Cotter, the former Australian fast bowler, is also buried in this cemetery. Did you come across his grave?


Chris

[michaeldr]

Chris,

Thanks for your comments
re Tibby Cotter – your memory has not let you down here. Already working on it; watch this space

regards
Michael

[skipman]

I too, have just caught up with this excellent thread. Thanks Michael.

It looks hot?

Mike

[oppy]

Dear Michael

I really enjoyed this thread and your super photos.  My great-uncle Private Sidney Trevelyan, Somerset Light Infantry, died on 6 November 1916 aged 26 and is buried at Beersheba.  I had thought it was a 'difficult' area to visit it is not the most peaceful region in the world.  Obvioulsy this is not the case.  I am still looking into uncle Sidney's short life but wonder if you could tell me which campaign medals he would have been intitied to?  They are long lost I think but it is good to know.

Once again thank you for a lovely look see.

Best wishes

Oppy

[michaeldr]

Mike,

Good to hear from you again and glad you have enjoyed the postings.
Yes, it's hot but dry in the desert; not at all sticky as on the Med coast!

All the best
Michael
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Oppy,

I am still looking into uncle Sidney's short life but wonder if you could tell me which campaign medals he would have been entitled to? They are long lost I think but it is good to know.

I am not a medals expert and I am afraid that you will have to turn to others for guidance on this. In general terms, campaign medals as such were not awarded in the Great War, however there was a British War Medal and an Allied Victory Medal and his Medal Index Card (MIC) will help you find out when they were issued (and often to whom.) The MIC will also tell you if he was entitled to one of the Stars which were awarded to those who volunteered and served overseas in 1914 or 1915. The MIC should be traceable at the National Archives and downloadable for a nominal fee.

Try a post here http://1914-1918.invisionzone.com/forums/i...p?showforum=154 to get real info on this from our real experts in this matter.

Good luck
Michael

[LST_164]

Trevelyan, Sidney John   Private no.1913, West Somerset Yeomanry, earned the British War and Victory medals sometime after 1 January 1916 and they would have been named to this unit.

Later transferred 12th Somerset Light Infantry. and killed on 6 November 1917.  Buried Beersheba.

LST_164

[(nzef)]

And I must say I DO NOT like that white backing to the NZ headstone. Nasty.

That is the only one I have ever seen like that - I've just photographed 3000!

It does stand out though. I suspect this is a local 'issue' -

Cheers

[michaeldr]

(nzef)

Thanks for that; good to have a Kiwi comment on it

regards
Michael

[michaeldr]

This picture is from the AWM and it shows five Australian graves at Shellal in April 1917. [These graves were transferred to Beersheva after the war]



quote from the AWM: ...Graves of five Australians killed on 17 April 1917 when a bomb was dropped into the camp of 2nd Light Horse Brigade. The graves are marked with wooden crosses and rocks. From left to right the graves are those of:
Armenac Kemkemian……….

This is how Armenac Kemkemian is recorded by the CWCC

Name: KEMKEMIAN
Initials: A
Nationality: Australian
Rank: Interpreter
Regiment/Service: Australian Light Horse
Unit Text: 2nd
Secondary Unit Text: (Supply Section).
Date of Death: 17/04/1917
Casualty Type: Commonwealth War Dead
Grave/Memorial Reference: Q. 61.
Cemetery: BEERSHEBA WAR CEMETERY

Note that this man is an Australian and that his regiment is given as the 2nd Australian Light Horse (secondary unit text – Supply Section)

Then why is there no rising sun badge or any mention of his unit on his headstone?