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#1 susan kitchen

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 08:22 AM

I assume that as with everything else regarding the Armed Forces that there were lists of men who were exempt. and why. ? If so, have these survived .?
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#2 headgardener

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 09:21 AM

If you mean men who were exempt from service, that was decided by local tribunals which heard appeals from men who were seeking examption from service under the terms of the National Service Act. The records of these tribunals were destroyed in about 1920, I understand. This subject has been discussed in serveral threads on this site. Maybe have a trawl to check, but I'm pretty sure that they were all destroyed.

But if you mean what types of job were exempt, then I'm pretty sure that there wasn't such a thing as a 'reserved' occupation at that time.

#3 susan kitchen

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 09:37 AM

It was the reserved occupation i meant. I had heard somewhere that some Farm labourers were exempt. Which made me wonder about other occupations i.e Harness maker. I noted that one guy was in this profession but although eligible by age wasn't taken into the Army until July 1918. When he would have been about 25 .
But thanks for your reply.
Susan



#4 headgardener

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:29 AM

There may have been a variety of reasons why your man wasn't taken at an earlier date;
Potential recruits were 'graded' physically - relatively benign conditions such as flat feet, curved spines, etc would have made a man unsuitable for service, so your man may have fallen into a 'low-grade' category despite being otherwise fit to do his job.
Potential recruits were assigned to categories based partly on their circumstances; a fit young man who was unmarried would be amongst the first categories to be called up, while an overweight, less healthy 40 year old who was married might only be considered once all the higher grade men were 'used up'.
He might have previously appealed against being called-up for a variety of reasons (family circumstances, for example) and have been given a conditional, or time-limited, exemption.

Basically, there may have been a number of factors which could have led to him be called-up at a relatively later date than his contemporaries.

#5 kenf48

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 11:30 AM

Following on from the post above as said there was no list of 'reserved occupations' as such but under the terms of the Act (http://www.1914-1918.net/msa1916.html) a man could appeal to his local tribunal for exemption on the grounds that if he was called up it would cause hardship or the failure of his or his employer's business. I recall, for example, seeing an appeal by a painter and decorator. Other documented examples include grooms and hunt servants. The Tribunals were usually formed from the usual suspects of local worthies and as ever it seems although they were generally unsympathetic if you had the right connections it was possible to gain exemption on the most tenuous of grounds
An exemption granted by the tribunal was time limited, usually to six months, and if a man's circumstances changed then he would become liable for call up.

As for the exemption of agricultural labourers there was a debate in Parliament in 1917 where, when discussing an extension to the Act, an MP describes a certificate of exemption issued by the Board of Agriculture and goes on to say the Board and the War Office were at 'daggers drawn over this issue' (of exemption).

The debate goes on to discuss the real dilemma over food production versus military service and whether or not agricultural workers should be automatically exempt.
http://hansard.millb...9170403_HOC_300


There were similar debates about mine workers who volunteered in such numbers in 1914 there were real problems. They provide a good example of later exemptions so a miner would be exempt as long as he worked in the mines, if he left then the grounds for exemption would cease and he be automatically liable for conscription. The phrase 'reserved occupation' seems to have crept into these debates but I don't know where it originated.


The threads referred to above describe a few rare examples of where records have survived but the best place to look is the newspaper archives who invariably published the decisions of the Local Tribunals. Juxtaposed against the casualty lists published in the same editions, whether intentional or not, it was another subtle pressure to encourage men to enlist.

Ken



#6 susan kitchen

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Posted 22 July 2010 - 02:26 PM

Thanks both for the information and links. And for putting me right about the exemption issues. I shall have a good read of the enclosed.
Susan

#7 CarylW

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 01:01 PM

....snip ....... The Tribunals were usually formed from the usual suspects of local worthies and as ever it seems although they were generally unsympathetic if you had the right connections it was possible to gain exemption on the most tenuous of grounds..............snip............
Ken


I had to smile at this one from The Yorkshire Evening News July 1918. Looks as if this man's connections were of no help here:
From an article titled "Interesting appeal cases"

"Lord Knaresborough, the chairman of the North-Eastern Railway company appealed on behalf of his chauffeur, a married man aged 27, and passed Grade 2. It was stated that his lordship lived 4 miles from a station and 15 miles from the Company's office at York.
The Local Tribunal considered that a woman could do the work. Applicant said that the car was of 35 horsepower, and he had nearly dropped down dead several times in starting it so he did not know what a woman could do.
The National Service representative: "It would be better then for you not to be in this job"
The appeal was dismissed
"

Caryl

#8 geraint

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 01:20 PM

Here's another good one from my local paper regarding the town pharmacist and his son. Father represented his son at the Tribunal.

Hywel Roberts (18) was represented by his father TJ Roberts, Chemist. TJ Roberts stated that he was the only pharmacist in the town, and that his son assisted him in preparing all prescriptions. He dealt with 80% of all prescriptions in the town as well as all prescriptions for the Red Cross Hospital. Hywel was training to follow him in the pharmacy. TJ Roberts stated that he had not billed the hospital for any prescriptions done; and that the bill totalled £125 for last year alone; and that he would not be billing the hospital in the future neither. This was a great saving for the Ruthin war effort. TJ Roberts than stated, that if the hospital was to employ a pharmacist, open a pharmacy and equip it; salary and costs would be around £300 per year. He and his son were saving the hospital from this expenditure. A total debt to both of over £425 so far. The Tribunal exempted Hywel for the duration of the war as long as he remained in his father's employment. The Tribunal issued a vote of thanks to TJ Roberts for his selfless contribution to the war effort.

And deservedly so in my opinion!-_-

#9 derekb

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 02:49 PM

Here are some scans of a Protected Occupation Certificate.

Regards

Derek.

Attached Files



#10 Magnumbellum

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 03:15 PM

As Derek has usefully implied by the document he has displayed, although he has not explcitly drawn attention in his text, the relevant nomenclature in WW1 was 'Protected Occupations' not 'Reserved Occupations' - the latter is WW2 terminology, and that system was different in various ways.

A Schedule of Protected Occupations (M.M. 130) was published by the Ministry of Munitions, to come into operation on 7 May 1917. A revised version (M.M.130 revised) was published on 1 February 1918. The Schedule runs to some 35 A5 pages of fairly close print, detailing a whole variety of jobs, each with its own code number. The preface makes clear the relevance of age to protection of occupation.

Where applicable, this system overrode the necessity to apply to a local Military Service Tribunal for exemption.

On nomenclature, also, I would again emphasise the appropriateness of using the word 'application' to describe an approach to a Local MST, reserving the word 'appeal' to an actual appeal to a County Appeal Tribunal, which was clearly the position in the Lord Knaresborough case cited by Caryl.

#11 GRUMPY

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:13 PM

Following on from the post above as said there was no list of 'reserved occupations' as such Ken


Not "as such" maybe but from time to time massive lists of "Certified Occupations" were published, which listed those where exemption might be granted. I have complete copies of the lists of July 1916 and September 1918.

#12 Tony Lund

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 04:29 PM

April 1918:

Under the heading “A Sweeping Comb-out” the Holmfirth Express published a very long list of occupations where men holding Exemption Certificates that had been granted on occupational grounds, would now find that their exemption from service had been cancelled as from April 24th 1918.

In each case an age limit was set and men younger than the limit were now liable for conscription regardless of how valuable their employers considered their services to be. Some examples are:

Slaughtermen under thirty-eight, Clog makers under thirty-five, Drivers (horse or power) under thirty-two, Steam engine drivers under thirty, and Toolmakers under twenty-eight years of age.

These men could still appeal to the Military Tribunals for exemption on personal or domestic grounds and the Regional Director of National Service also had discretion to suspend conscription if he considered a man was employed on urgent war business.

Men who were above the age limit given for their occupation would continue as before.

I would imagine that all local newspapers would have carried similar notices from time to time as required.

Tony.

#13 tootrock

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 06:11 PM

If you have access to the Times Digital Archive,(e.g. through a local public library)a full list of the age limits for each trade is given on page 10 of the issue dated April 11th 1918.

Martin

#14 themonsstar

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:37 AM

There are lists in ACI,A.O. and History of the Ministry of Munitions.

#15 tootrock

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:50 AM

themonstar

A slight diversion.

I wonder if you could tell me where one can access The History of the Ministry of Munitions. My great-uncle worked for the ministry from 1916, and ultimately rose to the position of Assistant Financial Secretary.

Martin

#16 Magnumbellum

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 03:14 PM

These men could still appeal to the Military Tribunals for exemption on personal or domestic grounds and the Regional Director of National Service also had discretion to suspend conscription if he considered a man was employed on urgent war business.


Terminology again!

The relevant tribunals were Military Service Tribunals, not Military Tribunals. The latter name would imply that they were run by the military (as equivalent tribunals have sometimes been run in some overseas countries). The tribunals were civilian, run by local councils, albeit with a military representative as a party, but not as a member of the tribunal.

Also, as I have said above, one did not "appeal" to a Local MST. One applied, but, if dissatisfied, then appealed to a County Appeal Tribunal.

#17 Terry_Reeves

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:38 PM

Martin

The complete set can be seen at the National Archives. The MUN series of files also contain the drafts for the history.

TR

#18 themonsstar

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 04:45 PM

Pass me his name i will have a look.

#19 tootrock

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 05:39 PM

His name was John Henry Guy.

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#20 CarylW

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 11:39 AM

Found an interesting snippet in the Daily Sketch August 1918

"THOSE STEPNEY EXEMPTIONS"

"Inquiries into the large number of exempted men in the Stepney district, led to Ida Lilian Carter (19), of Lewisham, employed in the office of the Stepney tribunal being summoned at Old-street on Saturday charged with forging the signature of the clerk. The hearing was adjourned.
Sir A. Bodkin alleged that the girl, having access to the official forms and stamps, issued forms to young men who wished to dodge the Army
These shirkers gave her money with which to buy chocolates and sweets
It would be necessary to cancel all the exemptions given at Stepney and to go through the entire matter again"

Since this happened (allegedly), or was uncovered, three months before the Armistice, wonder if any of those re-examined actually made it into active service? Or if the re-examination had time to take place before the Armistice by the time they had sorted it all out?


Caryl

#21 jctshug

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Posted 06 May 2012 - 04:15 PM

Not "as such" maybe but from time to time massive lists of "Certified Occupations" were published, which listed those where exemption might be granted. I have complete copies of the lists of July 1916 and September 1918.


Hello, I was wondering if you could help me. I'm trying to find lists of protected occupations, as well as those that would have qualified as unstarred. I know much of this was left in the hands of the local tribunals, but were there any occupations that were universally acknowledged as unstarred?

Cheers!

#22 Harvey Lloyd

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:25 PM

Would you have details of the paper tghat this apperar in; I note it was orriginaslly a 2010 posting.?
Harvey lloyd

Here's another good one from my local paper regarding the town pharmacist and his son. Father represented his son at the Tribunal.

Hywel Roberts (18) was represented by his father TJ Roberts, Chemist. TJ Roberts stated that he was the only pharmacist in the town, and that his son assisted him in preparing all prescriptions. He dealt with 80% of all prescriptions in the town as well as all prescriptions for the Red Cross Hospital. Hywel was training to follow him in the pharmacy. TJ Roberts stated that he had not billed the hospital for any prescriptions done; and that the bill totalled £125 for last year alone; and that he would not be billing the hospital in the future neither. This was a great saving for the Ruthin war effort. TJ Roberts than stated, that if the hospital was to employ a pharmacist, open a pharmacy and equip it; salary and costs would be around £300 per year. He and his son were saving the hospital from this expenditure. A total debt to both of over £425 so far. The Tribunal exempted Hywel for the duration of the war as long as he remained in his father's employment. The Tribunal issued a vote of thanks to TJ Roberts for his selfless contribution to the war effort.

And deservedly so in my opinion!Posted Image



#23 rolt968

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 10:42 PM

In the general context of Military Service Tribunals, if anyone has access to the newspaper archive online, it is very educational (both about their general operation and some of the bizarre things said during them) to follow the reports of the local tribunals in the Dundee Courier editions for the "combing out" period of 1917-18.

Roger.