10 replies to this topic

[ddycher]

All

Have been reading a lot recently about the various officer cliques in the pre-war British Army. Specically :

Wolseley's "Africans" or "Ashanti Ring"
Roberts' "Indian Ring"

and to lesser extents Kitcheners' "Egyptians" and those associated with French during his pre-war rise.

Does anyone have any views on the impact of being (or not being) part of one of these rings had on this theatre ?

I have been reading where the remaining "Africans" who had lost favour to the "Indians" with the replacement of Buller with Kitchener in South Africa were by the start of the great war seriously in the descendancy and that this became a significant impediment to older staff achieving higher command in the Near East.

A good example of this being Sir John Adye, Wolseleys one time ADC and DAG in the EEF. Adye is an interesting character when it comes to the interaction of the "rings" as he actually served under Roberts in the Kuram Valley Field Force and as a Private Secretary under Lansdowne. Both Adye and Maxwell actually served under Wolseley in Egypt but I have always considered Maxwell one of Kitcheners "Egyptians".

As yet I am not clear on how "the Indians" were fairing against "the Egyptians". My view at the moment being thet Maxwell's removal and the death of Kitchener saw the end of this and that Allenby's appointment brought in a new era.  

Anyone have any thoughts ?

Regards
Dave

[armourersergeant]

I think that by 1914 the waters had muddied somewhat and that the two camps had a bit of cross over, but I would go with the Indians in the accent. The likes of Hamilton seemed to have feet in both camps. I think Kitchener's influence was somewhat waning before his death in 1916.

Regards
Arm

[ddycher]

Thanks Arm

Re. Hamilton I would agree.

Although I had previously listed as an "Indian" given his service as Asst Military Secretary to Roberts in India.

I had also tagged him as he initially he struggled to get into the Egyptian Campaign although he did eventually serve under Wolseley in the Gordon Relief. His condemnation of Wolseleys nepotism (although it must be said this was significantly after the fact) in the Egyptian Camel Corps also shows he never exactly hero worshipped Wolseley.

However Hamilton himself had stated that if he had gone to Staff College (as Wolseley wanted him to) instead of to India he would probably have ended up an "African".

Intrigueing....there must be more examples of this.

Regards
Dave

[ddycher]

Thought there would be more interest in this so will try one more time just in case people missed it.

Regards
Dave

[Steven Broomfield]

I did!

I believe there was a bit of a 'down' on Indian Army officers in higher ranks. From memory I'm not certain, but I think only 1 made it to Corps command (apart from the Indian Corps, of course). Although a lot on IA officers on furlough were co-opted for the K Armies in 1914/15, at higher levels in France they got poor rations.

Presumably, the Home Army people all knew each other and socialised, whereas the IA types were too busy doing proper soldiering ( ); additionally, fighting tribesmen on the Frontier was a bit infra dig, compared to running a decent scheme at Aldershot.

OK, I'm being deliberately provoking, but I think the IA senior ranks were rather overlooked.  I'll try and check over the weekend.

[Staffsyeoman]

I think I'd agree with Broomers; I think it lingered into WW2 as well. Much animus towards Auchinleck was expand his Indian Army background of WW1 and the view that he was far better suited to be CinC India than of
'western' troops (which I've always thought condescending and generated by the pro-Monty camp).

And think how many other WW1 IA officers got to higher command in WW2, especially beyond the India and Burma theatres?? Not many I can think of beyond the obvious of Slim  - and Alexander had a short-lived command in India in the 30s.

[squirrel]

Goes back a while - IIRC Wellington was subject to some comment when he came back to Europe after his victories in India.

There was always the psc clique as well in WW1.

[Phil_B]

I believe that Indian Army officers tended to be less well off - that`s why they were in India where the cost of living was much lower. Historically, a rich officer would exchange with a poorer one to avoid garrison service abroad. That probably indicated a lower place in the social scale for the Indian chap so putting the two together (lower status and service out of the eye of the London military hierarchy) it`s not surprising that they didn`t progress as well as their better off brothers?

[ddycher]

So are we thinking that ascending transferred from Wolseleys Africans to Roberts Indians and then to the Home Army / French clique ? Would seem some lingering in the older senior officers. Adye (ref'd below) very much still saw himself as a "Wolseley Man" right up until his retirement. Were some theatres more effected by this bias than others ?

Regards
Dave

[ddycher]

This one intrigues me and dont feel I have have ever gotten to the bottom of how deep it went. Anyone interested in revisiting the topic ?

Regards
Dave

[ddycher]

All

As noted elsewhere just finished reading Allan Mallinson's "The Making of the British Army". Whilst in general I enjoyed it I was surprised how little it ref'd this topic. The "Indian Ring" was never mentioned and in reading the "Ashanti Ring" had passed into history by Majuba Hill in 1881 ie. the ring had a life of only 8 years (1873~1881). Leigh Maxwell at least stretched it to cover Wolseleys own career upto 1882.

Not buying in to either...... I still believe it was strong in the Gordon Relief of 1884/85, then in the reconquering of the Sudan, was a problem in the Boer Wars 1898~1902 coming to a head in the face off between Buller and Warren. It is my view that echo's were still reverberating (atleast in Egypt) right down to the Great War...

Anyone want to bite ?

Dave