39 replies to this topic

[alfox]

Afternoon all.

Chanced upon this forum after putting Gordon's name into Google.  He was my great uncle, KIA Palestine 27 June 1918.  NKG Jerusalem Momument to the Missing Panel 60.

I've got a fair bit of info on him, but keep feeling that there is more out there.  One item I have is a photo of what was left of his Bristol Fighter (Serial # A7236) taken from the ground. This looks like the same plane photographed from the air by Gordons colleagues on the afternoon of his death (See AWM4-8-4-6part2)

I'm lead to believe that the original of this photo (and possibly others of the same plane) is in the war museum in Munich.  Anyone out there know anyone in Munich or will be passing through there soon who would be prepared to go and look for me?

I'm happy to share the information I have on my great uncle if anyone is interested.  For example, I have photos obtained from German and Turkish sources showing Gordon's observer, Lt LH Smith in captivity in Amman, and with the help of an Australian Archaeologist, have been able to identify the spot where the plane went down in the Jordanian desert to within 100 metres or so.

Finding the grave site is my ultimate goal.

Thanks.

[Andrew Smith]

G'day Mate,

I have just recently seen the photos of LH Smith at the wreck of your great uncle. I was at the Society stall at Williamtown Airbase and we had a collage of photos from our archived collection that i had never seen before and there was LH Smith standing in front of the wrecked aircraft.

The Society conducted an interview with LH Smith in 1964 and a transcript of that appears in our Summer 1964 Journal. There is quite a graphic detail regarding the pair being shot down. I also am happy to tell you that the audio interview with LH Smith survives to this day and will appear soon on the Society website in our members section.

I would only be too happy to help you in your research.

Regards,

Andrew

[alfox]

Thanks Andrew.

Is the photo you refer to of a bloke with a pipe in front of a plane crashed in rocky terrain?  If so, the bloke is not LH Smith and the wreck he is standing in front of is not my great uncle's plane.

There are a number of photos of the bloke with the pipe.  Have a look on the AWM site.  In one of them he has his hat off revealing a bald scalp.  Smith (according to his daughters) had a full head of hair all his life.

I think the confusion was caused by the AWM, but they appear to have corrected it lately.

If the photos you are talking about are not the ones above, I'd be interested in seeing some scans.

I would also really like to get a copy of the Smith Transcript.  What does he say about my great uncle's grave site (if anything)?

The only reference to a grave site is in my great uncles service record, where a copy of a message written by Smith and dropped at Ramleh is reproduced.  It says in part "(P?) S Oxenham was buried at Kutrani".  Kutrani was little more than a rail head on the Hejaz railway in 1918.  It is now a town known as al-qatranah in Jordan.

Pardon my ignorance, but what is the Society?

Regards,

Alan Oxenham

re

[Andrew Smith]

G'day Alan,

They are the photos, they were also included with the article on LH Smith, I will dig into it though with some of the more senior members of the Society. On close inspection though I think it is a Bristol Fighter.

The Society is the Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians. The Society has been operating since 1962 and has an amazing amount of material in its archive. Most of which is slowly being made available to our members via our website.

Unfortunately the article does not mention a burial and I haven't listened to the original interview, but shall do later tonight.

Here is an extract from the interview that appeared in the Summer 1964 '14-'18 Journal.....

"Well, I went out on a daylight patrol. We had finished the patrol and we were going back, and
Gordon [Oxenham] and I were dragging back a little bit. I spotted these two German machines, so we
swung round and went down and then up in between them, and we put the burst into the one fellow.
We were up then at about 10,000 feet I think and he went down, no smoke or anything, he just went
down. It’s a very clever trick; the Germans would go down and then straighten up and go home. We
thought that they won’t get away with this, so we followed them down, but they hit the turf. We
pulled out and looked for the other fellow. In the meantime of course we had signalled to the plane we
were escorting, and they came back but by the time they did the battle was over because the second
fellow came down to meet us. He couldn’t hit us and we couldn’t hit him. Although he said he shot us
down, I believe they shot us down from a German redoubt, because the bullets came up. He was still
in the air of course. Gordon got shot in the head and I got shot under the eye, and we crashed from
1000 feet."

Regards,

Andrew.

[alfox]

Thanks Andrew.

I kind of suspected that the Society you mentioned was the Australian Society of WW1 Aero Historians.  You would have known Neville Hayes.

I corresponded with Neville a bit and contributed some photos to his posthumously published book "Billy Stutt and the Richmond Flyboys".  Gordon was one of those flyboys.  

If you have the book, page 270 has a touched up photo of the plane as well as a photo of Laurie Smith.

If you don't have the book, let me have your email address and Ill send you copies of the photos I've got.  They'll be too big to attach to this and I'm not computer literate enough to work out how to reduce them.

Laurie got the photo of the plane from one of his German captors, who in turn got it from the museum in Munich.  That's why I reckon there may be something more to be found there and why I am hoping someone knows someone who lives there and can research for me or can visit and do the same.

Thanks for the quote from Laurie Smith.  It is similar to some other quotes which he made during the course of his life, but unusual in that in your quote he reckons he got shot down from the ground.

Regards,

Alan Oxenham

[Andrew Smith]

G'day Alan,

One of the greatest tragedies in my life is I never got to sit down with Neville face to face and have a chat. We corresponded quite often via email and we lost a gem of a bloke 5 years ago this past September 21st. My how time flies.

I have the book as I own Reveille Books, an online military bookstore, the link is at the bottom of my signature. You can email me on smithags@reveillebooks.com.au and we might be able to swap some information.

Just a side note, I had two Great uncles who served with the Half Flight, William died after he was captured at Kut, but his twin brother Hector went on to Join 1 AFC, I wonder if Hector ever worked on Gordon's aircraft.

Regards,

Andrew

[Michael Molkentin]

Hi Alan

This sounds like an interesting venture.

I did some looking into Oxenham & Smith for my book on the AFC. It sounds like you're aware of the Smith interviews (he has a manuscript account and recorded interview at the AWM too- id be happy to mail you a CD ROM of them)- and he of course, speaks at length about the events leading to Oxenham's death.

Conrick mentions Gordon Oxenham having a dog- it would run up to anyone who arrived at the aerodrome in the days following Oxenham's death thinking it was its owner returning. Quite sad really.

Now- regarding that photo you mention. I put the photo in my book and labeled it as being Smith in front of their crashed plane. I got it from the RAAF Museum (which apparently believes it is Smith). Mark Lax, in his Joe Bull book has a similar photo (obviously of the same mane, same crash) and also claims it was Smith. However, I was always a little suspicious that it might not be Smith  because the man in the picture is balding. Smith was a young man- I think he was only about 21 in 1918- and the man in that picture with the pipe looks substantially older. That said, in the manuscript Smith wrote (that's in the AWM) he explains how the morning after the crash his Turkish captors took him back to the scene of the crash. He wrote: "I can never forget this dreadful site, and for the first time I realised what must have happened." He saw the German aircraft they had shot down nearby- and says "All three officers (ie- the two Germans and Oxenham) were buried with full military honours at Kitrine".  

The photos on the AWM now suggest it was Len Heathcote in the imaage. I am doubtful of this though because Heathcote was shot down in a BE2e- and the aircraft in the image doesn't look to me like a BE2e (but admittedly, aircraft identification isn't my strength). Ill attach it below for the boffins.

So- I am not 100% sure it's Smith in that photo but I am quite certain it is (certain enough to claim it as such in publication, any how).

Oh- and the manuscript by Smith at the AWM clearly cites ground fire as the cause of their being shot down. I was aware that later in life Smith claimed it was an enemy aircraft.Given the manuscript dates from the 1920s-1930s I trusted it over the later interview and correspondingly put it down to ground fire in the boook.

Michael
 9_Lawrence Smith.jpg   88.68K   10 downloads

[Dolphin]

The tail of the aeroplane in the photo certainly looks a lot more like that of a Bristol F.2b than a BE2e.

Gareth

[Andrew Smith]

Here is the same aircraft from the front. I like Michael am not the best at aircraft identification, but after 30 minutes of swapping between photos of BE2e and Brisfits I am 99% certain this is a Brisfit. The question now remains, who is the chap in the photo?

Regards,

Andrew.

 photo2.jpg   78.53K   3 downloads

[alfox]

Morning Andrew and Michael.

According to Monica Walsh, the curator of RAAF Museum at Point Cook, the photos of the bald man with the pie in front of the crashed Bristol Fighter (or BE2e - I'm no expert either) came from an old photograph album belonging to Air Mechanic Keritz of 1Squadron AFC.  The album was donated by his son Squadron Leader Keritz and the misdescription of Smith as the bald man comes from that album.

Mark Lax carried the misdescription into Joe Bull's diaries and I guess from there it went into the AWM.

I say positively that the bald man is not Smith for the following reasons:

1.

[alfox]

Grrrr. Hate Computers.

As I was saying before I pressed the wrong button, the bald man is not Smith for the following reasons:

1.   He is bald.  Smiths daughters are emphatic that he had a full head of hair all his life.

2.   The terrain is all wrong.  Gordon and Laurie Smith were shot down in the Jordanian desert south of Kutrani.  It is gently undulating gravel desert, not hilly as in the bald man's photos.

3.   the vegetation is all wrong.  There are no trees in the Jordanian desert anywhere.  I reckon the bald man's crash site is in northern Israel or in Lebanon.

4.   Gordon's comrades took a photo of his wrecked plane on the afternoon of the shooting down.  See  http://www.awm.gov.a...-8-4-6part2.pdf   top photo on page 21. That photo bears a strong resemblance to the photo of the wreck that I have which was taken from the ground.

I also have photos of Laurie Smith in captivity.  Positively identified by his daughters, he is much younger than baldy, has a full head of hair and a wound to his right cheek where he says he was grazed by a bullet. I'll email to Andrew and would be happy to do the same to you, Michael if you let me have your email address.

I have Conricks diary and will soon purchase your book Michael, even though you have the wrong photo in it!

Regards,

Alan Oxenham

Tha

[stevebecker]

Mates,

Sorry about this but I record this man

OXENHAM Gordon Vincent 2/Lt AFC Aug 1917 R to 1 Sqn AFC (pilot) (2 victories) FE 2b (A7236) with Lt Smith PoW shot down by ground fire near Amman KIA 27-6-18 NKG Listed on Jerusalem War Memorial Palestine brother NH Oxenham Maj CMF

Are we saying he was brought down by a German fighter and not by ground fire?

Also do you know the name of his brother?

I understand the terrain around Amman is very rocky and not the open desert mentioned.

S.B

[alfox]

Steve,

I don't think anyone can say definitively after this period of time how Gordon was brought down - apart from a bullet to the head - and I don't think it really matters.

He was shot down south of Kutrani, which is open desert.  I refer you to the photo of the crash site taken a few hours after Gordon was shot down at  http://www.awm.gov.a...-8-4-6part2.pdf  (top photo page21) which should put the matter of terrain beyond doubt.  

Gordons brother was Major Norman Henry Oxenham DSO of the British Army Machine Gun Corps.  Prior to the outbreak of the war he was teaching English to German sailors at Wilhelmshavn, but was luckily in England visiting relatives when war broke out and that is the reason for his joining the British Army.  He started in the Somerset Light Infantry and saw action on the Western front, Salonika and Palestine.  He died in Sydney in 1951.

Regards,

Alan Oxenham

[Trevor Henshaw]

stevebecker, on 24 September 2010 - 01:21 AM, said:

OXENHAM Gordon Vincent 2/Lt AFC Aug 1917 R to 1 Sqn AFC (pilot) (2 victories) FE 2b (A7236) with Lt Smith PoW shot down by ground fire near Amman KIA 27-6-18 NKG Listed on Jerusalem War Memorial Palestine brother NH Oxenham Maj CMF

I think you probably mean Bristol Fighter F2b A7236.  The FE2b was a different animal and didn't serve with 1 Sqn AFC.

Regards,

Trevor

[Michael Molkentin]

alfox, on 24 September 2010 - 12:33 AM, said:

I also have photos of Laurie Smith in captivity.  Positively identified by his daughters, he is much younger than baldy, has a full head of hair and a wound to his right cheek where he says he was grazed by a bullet. I'll email to Andrew and would be happy to do the same to you, Michael if you let me have your email address.

I have Conricks diary and will soon purchase your book Michael, even though you have the wrong photo in it!

Hi Alan

I am now convinced that I (like Mark and the AWM) have misidentified that photo which is a shame as I just submitted a few minor corrections for the second edition a week ago- and the print run has already been done! Oh well- perhaps for the third edition you might be kind enough to let me use one of your bona-fide pictures of Smith.

Thanks for the offer to send the photographs- but I'll just get them from Andrew.

Michael

[stevebecker]

Trevor,

Thanks mate these terms get me some times.

Cheers

S.B

[domsim]

Dear Alan

I have followed this discussion with interest. I exchanged emails with the late Neville Hayes about Oxenham's crash site, just before he died through the Aerodrome list. I have worked in Jordan and been through Qatrana (Kutrani) and worked on Archaeological surveys in the area. I was able to tell Neville where Qatrana was but didn't hear any more from him. Like you I got hold of the aerial photo of the crashed Bristol and the combat report from the other australian plane and it took me about 10 minutes to locate the crash site on GoogleEarth, to the south east of Qatrana, there is a very characteristic wadi and other geological features which make it certain.

I have always been bothered by the photos of the man on the ground (Mr Bald) because as you say Oxenham's plane crashed on a flat gravel plain and the Mr Bald photos shows mountains or hills, this is clealry NOT Oxenhams crash.

Another intersting fact notice is that the aerodrome at Qatrana was north east of the railway station and if you look at the site on GoogleEarth there appears to be a graveyard in that area (grave like bumps in a partially walled enclosure)-I wonder if the aerodrome graves formed the nucleus of a modern, islamic graveyard for the the modern town. It is intriguing to think that Oxenham may be buried in this area.

All the best
Dominic

[domsim]

Dear Alan

A bit more info- the picture on the ground of the real crash site came from the German pilot who allegedly shot Oxenham and Smith from the ground, Victor Häffner. He had landed at the same site after a prolonged tussle with Smith and Oxenham. He claims to have hit their plane from the ground whilst Smith says they were brought down by ground fire from troops. Smith went to see Häffner in Germany in 1964 and they exchanged stories. There is a lot of this background on the Aerodrome Forum if you do some searches.

I got copies of aerial photographs from the Bavarian Archives in Munich taken by Fliegerabteilung 304b which was based at Kutrani at times in 1918. I contacted Dr Achim Fuchs who was curator and was very helpful and sorted out copies, it may be he can give you some information about the photo you are after. If you pm me I can send you his contact details

I started a similar topic to this a while ago-it is here
Oxenham topic

All the best

Dominic

[alfox]

domsim, on 27 September 2010 - 02:45 PM, said:

Dear Alan

I have followed this discussion with interest. I exchanged emails with the late Neville Hayes about Oxenham's crash site, just before he died through the Aerodrome list. I have worked in Jordan and been through Qatrana (Kutrani) and worked on Archaeological surveys in the area. I was able to tell Neville where Qatrana was but didn't hear any more from him. Like you I got hold of the aerial photo of the crashed Bristol and the combat report from the other australian plane and it took me about 10 minutes to locate the crash site on GoogleEarth, to the south east of Qatrana, there is a very characteristic wadi and other geological features which make it certain.

I have always been bothered by the photos of the man on the ground (Mr Bald) because as you say Oxenham's plane crashed on a flat gravel plain and the Mr Bald photos shows mountains or hills, this is clealry NOT Oxenhams crash.

Another intersting fact notice is that the aerodrome at Qatrana was north east of the railway station and if you look at the site on GoogleEarth there appears to be a graveyard in that area (grave like bumps in a partially walled enclosure)-I wonder if the aerodrome graves formed the nucleus of a modern, islamic graveyard for the the modern town. It is intriguing to think that Oxenham may be buried in this area.

All the best
Dominic

Thank you for this Dominic.

I had always wondered where the aerodrome was in relation to the railway station, and have suspected that Gordon may be buried in the cemetery there.

Last year we had an Australian Archaeologist - Professor David Kennedy and his offsider Mike Neville fly over the area in a helicopter.

Mike Neville took plenty of photographs from the air of the crash area, al-Qatrana, and the cemetery at al-Qatrana. He also visited the cemetery and reported that there are a number of old graves in the area where the wall bulges out towards the turnpike, but that it's not that easy to tell an old  Bedouin grave from that of the 92 year old grave of an Australian airman.

To locate the grave, I reckon I need more evidence and someone with the clout to get the permits necessary to go looking.  There is supposed to be a photo of Gordon's burial somewhere.  Getting hold of that (if it exists) would be handy.

Regards,

Alan

[alfox]

domsim, on 27 September 2010 - 03:10 PM, said:

Dear Alan

A bit more info- the picture on the ground of the real crash site came from the German pilot who allegedly shot Oxenham and Smith from the ground, Victor Häffner. He had landed at the same site after a prolonged tussle with Smith and Oxenham. He claims to have hit their plane from the ground whilst Smith says they were brought down by ground fire from troops. Smith went to see Häffner in Germany in 1964 and they exchanged stories. There is a lot of this background on the Aerodrome Forum if you do some searches.

I got copies of aerial photographs from the Bavarian Archives in Munich taken by Fliegerabteilung 304b which was based at Kutrani at times in 1918. I contacted Dr Achim Fuchs who was curator and was very helpful and sorted out copies, it may be he can give you some information about the photo you are after. If you pm me I can send you his contact details

I started a similar topic to this a while ago-it is here
Oxenham topic

All the best

Dominic

Dominic,

My German and Turkish sources say that although Victor Haefner was obviously a brave man (Iron Cross 1st & 2nd Class), he can't necessarily be relied upon to tell the truth.

I have a copy of a letter he wrote Smith in the 1920's.  In it he asks for money and describes narrow escapes during the retreat of Turkish forces and their German allies from Palestine.  All well and good, but at the time of the retreat (according to my German and Turkish sources) he was safe on leave in Germany.

I have 2 photos of Smith in captivity.  In one he is flanked by Leutnant Khan and Ensign Nickel.  It looks like a trophy shot.  Khan got the Iron Cross 2nd class in July 1918 and I suspect that it may have been because he claimed to have shot down Gordon.  My Turkish sources are trying to find out.  It is believed that Khan was the observer and Nickel the pilot of the 2nd AEG.

I've also got a close up photo of Kutrani Station from the air taken in 1918.  Can't see much of the graveyard, but there was a trench that finished roughly where the bulge in the wall is now.

PM me with your email address if you would like copies of these photos.

Regards,

Alan

[domsim]

Hi all

just like to thank Alan for sending lots of fantastic photos to do with the Oxenham/Smith crash in Jordan. They do prove that the generally accepted photos (of Mr Baldy-seems so disrespectful bad can't think of anything else!-sorry) are NOT of the Oxenham/Smith crash.

Maybe someone can come up with a list of Bristol F2 losses in the middle east?

This begs the question who is Mr Baldy? Is he LH Heathcote as the Australian War Memorial suggests or my tuppence worth is that could Mr Baldy be Major A.J.Evans MC of 142 Squadron RFC? He had to crash land his Martinsyde near Kerak in Jordan on 19th March 1918 after bombing Kutrani. A Bristol Fighter crewed by Austin and Lee of 1 Squadron AFC  tried to pick him up but came a cropper as well and all 3 were captured by Turks. Could this be a photo of Evans or one of the others and the crashed Bristol? The terrain around Kerak is suitably rocky and the Turks in the Baldy photos are dressed for cold cold weather so it could be March (I worked in the area in the winter 10 years ago and we had snow)?

Just an idea or have I muddied the waters?

Link to an earlier thread on the Evans crash:
Bristol crash Kerak

and notice the captured guy on the left of the trio with the pipe!!??

Cheers
Dominic

[Andrew Upton]

domsim, on 06 October 2010 - 01:16 PM, said:

Link to an earlier thread on the Evans crash:
Bristol crash Kerak

and notice the captured guy on the left of the trio with the pipe!!??

Interesting - the chap extreme left has a blackened "mourning button" on his jacket. Might be a trick of the light, but in the first picture of "baldy" it looks like he too has the same blackened button - any chance of a better close up of "baldy" in the first shot for comparison?

[domsim]

Hi Andrew

I hadn't noticed the button. I have managed to look at Evans account of the crash near Kerak and there is a problem. He says the Bristol only received slight damage on landing and that because they couldn't take off again they set both planes on fire with a Very pistol. The Bristol in the Mr B photo looks unburnt and more extensively damaged. I tried to find a picture of Evans but the only one on the web is when he played cricket years earlier. What we need is a photo of Evans without a hat on, but I think my idea is looking a bit wobbly now!

As I said if anybody can come up with a list of Bristol Fighter losses in the MIddle East this might give us something to go on nudge nudge!

Thanks
Dominic

[domsim]

Hi Andrew

The button is a great spot- the more I look at this the more i like it. I have put the images together for comparison. When you look at Mr B's jacket in the photo in post #7 above, you realise the the image is back to front. I have flipped it for the comparison and I think you are right about the button. What we really need is a war period photo of Evans sans hat!

Cheers
Dominic

Attached Files

•  comp.jpg   78.88K   3 downloads

[alfox]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but the way I read it, the bloke in the officers cap and the pipe is identified as Lt Lee, not Captain Evans.  So we really need a photo of Lee without hat.

I remember doing some research on baldy a while ago.  Lee was definately a candidate.